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Old 12th May 2020, 20.16:57   #731-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham Football Club (Massive history thread!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by WasanActonlad View Post
photo 7
Is guy on right possibly Edward Manners
The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham Football Club (Massive history thread!)

Edward Manners was no longer involved in an official capacity at these races WAL.

I believe that the person you refer to in the bowler hat was our former player and ex mayor- Charles Murless.
He was heavily involved in the formation of the new British Pony and Galloway Racing Association in 1899 under which, this particular meeting in 1902 was governed and he was reported in newspaper articles in association with the governing body at these races throughout the early part of the 20th century. I only have one other photo of him from 1878, but his features are the same and I feel pretty confident that it is him in the photo that you refer to.

Last edited by eastsussexred; 12th May 2020 at 20.20:54..
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Old 12th May 2020, 20.29:32   #732-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham Football Club (Massive history thread!)

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Originally Posted by eastsussexred View Post
The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham Football Club (Massive history thread!)

Edward Manners was no longer involved in an official capacity at these races WAL.

I believe that the person you refer to in the bowler hat was our former player and ex mayor- Charles Murless.
He was heavily involved in the formation of the new British Pony and Galloway Racing Association in 1899 under which, this particular meeting in 1902 was governed and he was reported in newspaper articles in association with the governing body at these races throughout the early part of the 20th century. I only have one other photo of him from 1878, but his features are the same and I feel pretty confident that it is him in the photo that you refer to.
As attached
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Old 21st May 2020, 18.35:26   #733-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham Football Club (Massive history thread!)

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Originally Posted by jonesfach View Post
https://www.skysports.com/football/n...b-in-existence

Interesting-I know it’s not Wrexham but thought best place for it

Raised on the historical football kit site.....Sounds as though not as continuous as would like....Yes there was a Crystal Palace in early 1860's but not every season continuous to 1905.
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Old 1st June 2020, 13.19:29   #734-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham Football Club (Massive history thread!)

ESR....Sir have you received pm re Soames family on Wrexham-history.com
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Old 3rd June 2020, 17.07:47   #735-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham Football Club (Massive history thread!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by WasanActonlad View Post
ESR....Sir have you received pm re Soames family on Wrexham-history.com
Thanks WAL I hope you are well? I got your message and sorry that I hadn’t responded sooner but I have been busy.
Yes it is a great, informative piece on Wrexham-History about the Soames Family.
I wasn’t aware that the first roof was installed on the MRS in 1900, but on looking back to earlier maps, I can see that the original stone built stand was still open to the elements in 1872. There is some confusion in later newspaper articles, because The Turf Hotel was originally comprised of two distinct sections and in the early days, the taller of these sections with the balcony (Where the bar area is today) was also known as The Grandstand.
The first permanent Mold Road Stand was a stone- built structure that was constructed in 1854 and was continuously added upgraded and extended throughout the 19th Century. I had read that the stand was extended and improved in 1900 and so assume that this was when a roof was added, although the club had also intended to erect a covered stand on the Yale side of the ground in 1892 (attached) for the game against Chester and so I am not sure why this wasn’t erected.

I have added a number of maps from 1874 onwards to show you the extent of improvements over the years.


1854 Existing Mold Road Stand mentioned in correspondence
https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...60/4584963/12/


Wrexham Races 1857
‘There were no carriages on Friday, the day being too wet for the ladies to attend, but there were more gentlemen in the grand stand’.
https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...68/4586972/32/




1891 Stone stand on Mold Road renovated and an additional stand added to extend the MRS
https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...48/3172051/11/



1896- Bangor v Newtown Welsh Cup semi final report from The Racecourse.
‘As the ball curled downward, Thomas lashed out at it, and a hurricane of chears burst out all round the field, and from the densely packed real grand stand, and from the second class grand stand where Edwin and I were the other time, when it was seen that Edwards had been beaten.


1885 Wrexham Racecourse the Sports' Committee deemed it necessary to support with timber one portion of the grand stand on account of its insecurity. On Monday the stand was crowded with a large number of persons, who were interested spectators of the international football match. No steps were taken to protect the stand in the manner indicated, and fortunately no accident occurred, but I fancy that had the occupants known of its imperfections they would have quitted their exalted position for safer quarters. Something should be done, and that without delay

1892 Miners Meeting
‘The speeches were delivered from the grand stand, on which admirable arrangements were made for the speakers’
https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...69/4593576/66/
________________________________________

1899 Wrexham v Rhyl on The Racecourse.
‘I got among a jolly set of fellows on the grandstand. They turned out to be the Wrexham choir. They knew only one chorus, and perform it with such precision that it has a telling effect. Some fifty or sixty of them assemble together and on the down beat they attack as one man the refrain “Play UP Wrexham” finishing together on the up beat.
https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...09/3637716/66/

1875 Proclaiming the 1876 Eisteddfod on The Racecourse 1875
‘the committee had secured the Grand Stand, the admission to which was made only upon payment. The 400 or 500 who thus sought admission had a capital view of the proceedings, which lasted about two hours.’

https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...23/3853529/37/


Charles Murless ‘speaking from the grandstand 1895 https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...052/4594054/4/

January 1900 ‘the large and commodious grandstand being well patronized’
https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...052/4594054/4/

Concert in May 1900- ‘The Grandstand was well filled, and the football enclosure was well-lined with spectators’.
This article also states that The Racecourse was kindly lent for the occasion by J.J.Scott.
https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...34/4594339/48/

1882 Miners Meeting on The Racecourse- ‘Mr Moses Williams, Rhosddu, presided, and the speakers addressed the meeting from the grand stand. There were between 2,000 and 3,000 people present on the course and stand, and delegates represented the various collieries in the district’.
https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...83/4589590/51/

January 1900 Military on The Racecourse
‘They were the first company to be met by the band, and they came on to the Race- course in a most orderly fashion, followed by a large crowd of people, who probably were attracted by the martial music. They formed on the football field, and as the wind was blowing very strong they approached the Grand Stand for shelter.’
https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...08/4594214/77/

1879 Wales v Scotland
Admission to the Ground, 6d. Reserved Enclosure and Grand Stand, Is.
https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...46/3854951/29/

1876 North Wales v Sheffield- ‘A charge of 6d per head was made for admission to the ground; but owing to the unfavourable weather the attendance, including a few ladies who were undercover, was comparatively limited. ‘
‘Shefield won the toss and chose the goal near to the Grandstand.’
https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...74/3308177/24/

September 1900 Wrexham Races ‘the grandstand was brought down’ https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...96/4594502/76/
Attached Images
File Type: jpg covered stand 1892.jpg (83.4 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg 1868Grand Stand and Stone Stand tents.jpg (86.3 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg Ordnance Survey Plan of Racecourse 1874.jpg (47.3 KB, 17 views)
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Old 3rd June 2020, 17.09:59   #736-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham Football Club (Massive history thread!)

and maps from later
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1912 open stand on Yale side.jpg (260.1 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg 1937.jpg (124.6 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg 1960.jpg (235.4 KB, 22 views)
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Old 4th June 2020, 14.54:47   #737-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham Football Club (Massive history thread!)

All is well ESR, trust you're coping with the crowds on the coast in your neck of the woods..

Once again your latest additions makes interesting reading....

The one that intrigued me is the report of the Rhyl game by the Rhyl reporter interacting with 3 other Rhylites...with the Wrexham crowd especially what he dubs as the Wrexham choir some 50 strong and their intriguing chant or rendition of "play up Wrexham".
One can almost visualise it, some 70 years later it could easily have been "come and have a go , if you think you're hard enough, " more a case then of "come and join us if you can sing"...
I do find it interesting how the descriptive language of the Victorian/Edwardian era has changed, in that the chant of "play up Wrexham" would today be a case of the chant of "C'mon Wrexham"...(yes we know during recent seasons most chants may commence with an expletive).
The 2 things actually 3 that stand out from the report, even then the crowd got behind by singing, strange how things go full circle re where crowd gather to sing..then the original MRS, we've had the tech end, then the kop, now its back to the new MRS and tech end. Unless I'm wrong the stantsy side has never been a venue for the gathering of the "in crowd".
Secondly as refurred to above the terminology of the day as in "play up Wxm", is not used to day, though those of you familier with Ireland will be aware that if a local sporting team is doing well, especially as you get close to the later stages of the "All Ireland's" for gaelic football and hurling its not uncommon when travelling through an area whose team is doing well to see banners proclaiming for example "Up Kerry" or "Up Cork"..etc...Staying with Ireland strange how in sporting terms they not use term "squad" but "panel"....one is on the "panel" for the forthcoming game, not "one is in the squad".

Anyway meanwhile back at the ranch, and getting back on track , the 3rd point is....
"could we yet again lay claim to football first"...…?

Now bear with me....
The report states how harmonious the "Wxm Choir are in their rendition of Play up Wrexham", and in musical terms describes what I believe is described as a "round", (one is not musical.....infact only song I can sing in tune is Lee Marvin's "Wandering star").
Now I'm thinking hang on isn't there something familiar about "play up Wrexham"...
Then it struck me its the famous "Pompey Chimes".....as in "Play up Pompey, play up".

Now correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Portsmouth FC were founded (you can see where I'm going with this) in about 1907.
This is a report from 1899...…
So where we chanting the "Pompey Chimes" before they became the "Pompey Chimes", and they should be called the "Wrexham Chimes"...…??????

yes I know lockdown is affecting the train of thought....
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Old 4th June 2020, 15.12:32   #738-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham Football Club (Massive history thread!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by WasanActonlad View Post
All is well ESR, trust you're coping with the crowds on the coast in your neck of the woods..

Once again your latest additions makes interesting reading....

The one that intrigued me is the report of the Rhyl game by the Rhyl reporter interacting with 3 other Rhylites...with the Wrexham crowd especially what he dubs as the Wrexham choir some 50 strong and their intriguing chant or rendition of "play up Wrexham".
One can almost visualise it, some 70 years later it could easily have been "come and have a go , if you think you're hard enough, " more a case then of "come and join us if you can sing"...
I do find it interesting how the descriptive language of the Victorian/Edwardian era has changed, in that the chant of "play up Wrexham" would today be a case of the chant of "C'mon Wrexham"...(yes we know during recent seasons most chants may commence with an expletive).
The 2 things actually 3 that stand out from the report, even then the crowd got behind by singing, strange how things go full circle re where crowd gather to sing..then the original MRS, we've had the tech end, then the kop, now its back to the new MRS and tech end. Unless I'm wrong the stantsy side has never been a venue for the gathering of the "in crowd".
Secondly as refurred to above the terminology of the day as in "play up Wxm", is not used to day, though those of you familier with Ireland will be aware that if a local sporting team is doing well, especially as you get close to the later stages of the "All Ireland's" for gaelic football and hurling its not uncommon when travelling through an area whose team is doing well to see banners proclaiming for example "Up Kerry" or "Up Cork"..etc...Staying with Ireland strange how in sporting terms they not use term "squad" but "panel"....one is on the "panel" for the forthcoming game, not "one is in the squad".

Anyway meanwhile back at the ranch, and getting back on track , the 3rd point is....
"could we yet again lay claim to football first"...…?

Now bear with me....
The report states how harmonious the "Wxm Choir are in their rendition of Play up Wrexham", and in musical terms describes what I believe is described as a "round", (one is not musical.....infact only song I can sing in tune is Lee Marvin's "Wandering star").
Now I'm thinking hang on isn't there something familiar about "play up Wrexham"...
Then it struck me its the famous "Pompey Chimes".....as in "Play up Pompey, play up".

Now correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Portsmouth FC were founded (you can see where I'm going with this) in about 1907.
This is a report from 1899...…
So where we chanting the "Pompey Chimes" before they became the "Pompey Chimes", and they should be called the "Wrexham Chimes"...…??????

yes I know lockdown is affecting the train of thought....
Yes. I thought the 12th man in 1899 was interesting WAL. I think the 'play up' chant was about long before the 1904 chant of 'poor old Pompey' that later became 'play up Pompey', and so is almost certainly not of Portsmouth origin.
https://www.theguardian.com/notesand...,-2010,00.html

I will take a look to see if I can find when, where and why the 'play up' chant first emerged.
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Old 4th June 2020, 18.02:15   #739-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham Football Club (Massive history thread!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by WasanActonlad View Post
All is well ESR, trust you're coping with the crowds on the coast in your neck of the woods..

Once again your latest additions makes interesting reading....

The one that intrigued me is the report of the Rhyl game by the Rhyl reporter interacting with 3 other Rhylites...with the Wrexham crowd especially what he dubs as the Wrexham choir some 50 strong and their intriguing chant or rendition of "play up Wrexham".
One can almost visualise it, some 70 years later it could easily have been "come and have a go , if you think you're hard enough, " more a case then of "come and join us if you can sing"...
I do find it interesting how the descriptive language of the Victorian/Edwardian era has changed, in that the chant of "play up Wrexham" would today be a case of the chant of "C'mon Wrexham"...(yes we know during recent seasons most chants may commence with an expletive).
The 2 things actually 3 that stand out from the report, even then the crowd got behind by singing, strange how things go full circle re where crowd gather to sing..then the original MRS, we've had the tech end, then the kop, now its back to the new MRS and tech end. Unless I'm wrong the stantsy side has never been a venue for the gathering of the "in crowd".
Secondly as refurred to above the terminology of the day as in "play up Wxm", is not used to day, though those of you familier with Ireland will be aware that if a local sporting team is doing well, especially as you get close to the later stages of the "All Ireland's" for gaelic football and hurling its not uncommon when travelling through an area whose team is doing well to see banners proclaiming for example "Up Kerry" or "Up Cork"..etc...Staying with Ireland strange how in sporting terms they not use term "squad" but "panel"....one is on the "panel" for the forthcoming game, not "one is in the squad".

Anyway meanwhile back at the ranch, and getting back on track , the 3rd point is....
"could we yet again lay claim to football first"...…?

Now bear with me....
The report states how harmonious the "Wxm Choir are in their rendition of Play up Wrexham", and in musical terms describes what I believe is described as a "round", (one is not musical.....infact only song I can sing in tune is Lee Marvin's "Wandering star").
Now I'm thinking hang on isn't there something familiar about "play up Wrexham"...
Then it struck me its the famous "Pompey Chimes".....as in "Play up Pompey, play up".

Now correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Portsmouth FC were founded (you can see where I'm going with this) in about 1907.
This is a report from 1899...…
So where we chanting the "Pompey Chimes" before they became the "Pompey Chimes", and they should be called the "Wrexham Chimes"...…??????

yes I know lockdown is affecting the train of thought....
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastsussexred View Post
Yes. I thought the 12th man in 1899 was interesting WAL. I think the 'play up' chant was about long before the 1904 chant of 'poor old Pompey' that later became 'play up Pompey', and so is almost certainly not of Portsmouth origin.
https://www.theguardian.com/notesand...,-2010,00.html

I will take a look to see if I can find when, where and why the 'play up' chant first emerged.
The football chant ‘Play Up ------’ appears to have come from Drury Lane theatre audiences from the 1700’s who used to call out ‘play up nosey’ to a Jewish violincello player named ‘Jacob Basevi Cervetto’ (1682–1783). See attached.
Cervetto was the leader of a Drury Lane orchestra and is said to have introduced the violincello into English theatre orchestras. The press often portrayed him as a caricature with a big nose- hence ‘play up nosey’
The phrase ‘play up’ was a common phrase shouted out to musicians in public events, such as weddings etc…. throughout the 1700’s (before amplifiers existed) and was generally meant to inspire the musician to play louder and with more gusto in venues.
The phrase then appears to have trended amongst theatre audiences in the 18th, where it was applied to the performances of orchestras and musicians in general, before finding its way onto football terraces, where it was adopted as a chant, which was meant to inspire teams to play better. In common terminology, teams who were ‘playing up’ were said to be playing well and playing with more spirit than their opposition and the chant ‘Play Up -----‘ was widely used by supporters at pretty much every football ground in the late 19th Century, and particularly in the 1890’s. It would be impossible to ever find the first instance of the chant ‘Play Up’ at any sport stadium but it seems very unlikely that it first emerged at Portsmouth; not least because it wasn’t even claimed to have been used at Pompey until the first decade of the 20th Century, and there are plenty of recorded instances of other supporters using the chant in the 19th Century.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Cervetto Play Up Nosey.jpg (190.1 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg origin of play up nosey.jpg (69.0 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg 1824 Baumgarton Play UP Nosey.jpg (97.5 KB, 7 views)
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Old 6th June 2020, 12.22:48   #740-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham Football Club (Massive history thread!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by eastsussexred View Post
and maps from later
Interesting the 1937 attachment shows the angled stand. The earliest I thought you had managed to put a date on this was early 40s. However I can’t think much construction would have gone on between 1939-1945 so perhaps this date is correct?? Just finished being built perhaps
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