The massive Wrexham AFC history thread (The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham...)

[eastsussex]

Originally Posted by dragonspark

Exceptional work as always eastsussex.
From my own research over the years, which i have to admit is no where near as extensive, however Wrexham sits on a feature named as "The Wrexham Delta Terrace", it is a sand and gravel fan shaped deposit, left by the melting of the ice sheets at the end of the last ice age, it extends approximately from Chirk to Hope, maybe further i have only researched the very local aspects of it, As eastsussex states there was a convergance of two great ice sheets, as temperatures warmed and the ice melted, great lakes were formed on top of ice sheets and a dam of ice held back the water, eventually about 10,000 years ago the dam broke under presssure and huge amounts of water rushed over what is now the Wrexham district depositing the sand and gravel that had been dislodged by the force of rushing water, but also huge chunks of ice were washed downstream as well, when the force of the water could no longer carry the ice blocks they would come to rest and would then be surrounded by further sand and gravel effectively the ice blocks became a mould, when these blocks finally melted there would be a hole left which initially filled with melt water and then drainage water, these holes are referred to as "kettle Holes" and they are everywhere, if one looks at google maps it can be seen that many fields, particularly around Borras and the Industrial estate have ponds in the middle, these are "Kettle Holes".
When the A5156 was being built a Kettle hole was encountered close to the junction with the Borras road and caused many problems at the time.
As the melt water decreased it changed from devastating torrents into rivers and then streams, at Overton the flow of the river dee was blocked by deposited sand and gravel and the Dee changed its flow from south to north, these rivers of melt water cut channels into the deposited sand and gravel and can be easily identified, there are two examples at the LLan y Pwll roundabout area, if you are travelling toward Wrexham from the industrial estate, still rising on the hill, to the right one channel cuts through the Golf courses, the new road effectively cuts off this channel, a little further up at the roundabout there is another smaller channel cutting in between the Farm and the roundabout to the left.
When travelling along Borras Road away from Wrexham if one turns left onto Hoseley Lane on a bend look left and you can see a perfect river bed, this has been used for growing wheat in the past.
So without these deposits Wrexham could have been 150-200 ft lower that it is today.
Given the amount of Kettle holes throughout the area it would be safe to assume that Pwll yr uwd and Pwll Yr Wrach are further examples of this

Thanks DP, an excellent summary of the processes that created the sand pits.
Some of the old maps of the area include contours that give a perspective of the depth of these pits, although there are no agricultural buildings around the pits to indicate that they were being mined at the time when the maps were drawn. Instead they appear as a kind of natural sink hole; which, as you have stated, is explained by the way that the holes were formed from giant chunks of ice that deposited the sand as they gradually melted to form kettle holes.
One of these iceflows is believed to have travelled from the direction of Gwersylt and some geological surveys indicate that it was this particular iceflow that created the kettle holes at pwll yr uwd. But there are also other geological features around pwll yr uwd that cast further light on the circumstances that existed when these particular kettle holes were formed.
‘Kames’ are crests or ridges of sediment that are deposited along the front of a slowly melting glacier, or sometimes, they also form terraces at the side of the iceflow. These ridges can block the flow of ice, leaving massive chunks of ice isolated from the rest of the flow, so that they gradually melt to form kettle holes.
In my earlier post I explained that Norden had identified the area known as pwll yr vwdd (uwdd) in his survey of Bromfield and Yale in 1620, although there were actually two locations that he was referring to; - pwll yr uwdd (the fields where the sand pit is located) which he explained as being adjacent to ‘Bron pwll yr uwdd’ (pwll yr uwdd brow). This brow is the ridge which separated two areas of ancient flat moorland, and is now known as ‘Hillcrest’. Norden recorded another field in that same location as ‘caer fron’ (field of the brow) and from a Pentrebycham manuscript, dated 1602 we know that the full name of this field was ‘kaer vron pwll yr vwdd’ (field of the porridge pool brow)
As I have previously mentioned, there were two sand pits on the moors in the immediate area- ‘porridge pool’ and another on the opposite side of the ridge (where Wilson Avenue is now located).
The sand pits ‘kettle holes’ were formed on the flat lands, immediately at the base, on either side of the ridge (Hillcrest) and therefore indicating that huge chunks of ice were obstructed by the kame (ridge) and came to a halt on either side of the ridge, where they gradually melted to form the kettle holes that deposited their residue as sand pits.
Sand is porous and so the name ‘pwll yr uwdd, or porridge pool’ appears to date back to a time when the water table in that specific area was still high enough to saturate the sand, or leave pools of quicksand; from which, the name ‘porridge pool’ appears to have been derived.
Alfred Palmer transcribed Norden’s survey and published his findings in a series of books from the end of the 19th Century, although he also stated that it would be idle to speculate as to how the name of ‘pwll yr uwd or porridge pool’ came about.
But if glaciers and the residue they deposit were better understood in the 19th Century, then I wonder if Palmer would have come to the same conclusion?

[WasanActonlad]

Does acton lake come into this

[dragonspark]

not sure but i think Acton lake was man made

[eastsussex]

Originally Posted by Sir Crispin Lane

Just looking at a 19th century map of the Rhosnesni and Borras areas and noticed that the land around pleas Goulbourne farm also seems to give the shape of a racetrack when you see modern encroachment of housing up to the farm boundary .
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side...&right=BingHyb

Hi Sir Crispin. I hope you are well?

Thanks for this: I can see what you mean. Looking at a modern map, there is an area of arable land around the farm, which looks similar to the shape of a racetrack, although I am not sure if this is just the shape of the current farms boundary?
I found a statement from the planning dept in the 1970’s, which said that the land around the farm could be developed, although special consideration would be required in the siting, design and landscaping of any new developments, and so assume that such restrictions may have made it less favourable for development?



I can not say for certain exactly where the races were located, only that The Chirk Castle Accounts state that they were located at Rhosnesni.
They may well have been located at Plas Goulbourne, or another location in Rhosesni, but my original idea that they were located in the trianglular plot of land between The Gate and The Greyhound is based on the fact that this had previously been common pasture.
Alfred Palmer had identified that in earlier times, the common fields stretched from the old Beastmarket as far as Rhosnesni.
Common land was frequently used for horseracing in the old days and the nearby Holt Races were also held on similar land, known as ‘commonwood’.
Both the Gate Hangs High and The Greyhound used these fields for public events that sometimes attracted hundreds of people in the 19th Century, and this, in itself ‘might’ indicate that the land was still used for public events, long after the rights of pasture had been removed.
There was also a public event on these fields, which had been arranged by the town authorities in the 19th Century, when they sought permission from the land/leaseholder of the fields (a Mr Hughes) and the entrance to this event was via the toll gate.
None of this confirms that this was the location, but it does show that there was a tradition of holding public events on these fields.
Either way, it would be nice to know for sure.

[Bobo99]

Kudos to all involved in this thread, it is most interesting reading and wonderful images.
Something I noticed, which I couldn't see mentioned anywhere, is the pond near where Wrexham railway station was built. The pond appears on most of the ordnance maps in this thread and helped significantly to get my bearings. The pond is referred to as Llyn Bryn on one of the maps, I believe it translates to (Hill Lake). It possibly also explains the local area being called Spring Gardens.

[eastsussex]

Originally Posted by Bobo99

Kudos to all involved in this thread, it is most interesting reading and wonderful images.
Something I noticed, which I couldn't see mentioned anywhere, is the pond near where Wrexham railway station was built. The pond appears on most of the ordnance maps in this thread and helped significantly to get my bearings. The pond is referred to as Llyn Bryn on one of the maps, I believe it translates to (Hill Lake). It possibly also explains the local area being called Spring Gardens.

Hi Bobo. Yes, that is correct. Bryn y Llyn (lake on the hill) was located in a field known as Crispin Field, in front of a house known as The Crispin.
The house had been built on the town side of Wat’s Dyke (where the Connah’s Quay railway line now runs) and the associated outbuildings and cottage (later known as Crispin Cottage or Railway Cottage) was built on the Stansty side of the dyke, where the railings that run along the railway side of Crispin Lane are now located.
There are a number of posts about this further back in thread, although the thread is now getting a bit too long to search.
The house and its estate were first recorded on a map from 1675, and Alfred Palmer also found the house in parish registers from 1699 and the first decade of the 1700’s.
The house and its cottage and outbuildings were located on the railway side of Crispin Lane, opposite a position where the Yale now meets the kop, and the pond occupied the area where Spring Gardens are now located. And so the pond and ‘spring’ in ‘Spring Gardens’ do seem to be related to the ‘lake on the hill’.
At one time, the Crispin estate may have occupied as much as 27 acres, from at least as far as Watery Lane, across Mold Road (then known as Hope Street) up to Rhosddu, and also included at least one field on The Racecourse side of Crispin Lane. Although a small part of the fields (where the train station now stands) was owned by the church, and prior to the first station being built, there was a vicarage where the current ticket office now stands.
In front of the vicarage was another pond, known as ‘pwll y wrach’ (witches pond) and as the name suggests, this may have been used as a ducking pool for hags and witches in much earlier times.
The name ‘Byn y Llyn’ was adopted as the name of the house sometime around the end of the 18th Century and persisted until the late 1820’s, when the name of The Crispin resurfaced. The pond became then known as Durrack’s Pond, when William Durrack rented the property in the 1830’s/ early 40’s, but the house was gradually demolished to make way for railway lines, and the cottage and outbuildings were demolished later, in the 1870’s.
It’s difficult to imagine now, but if you had walked out from the town toward Stansty in the 16th Century, then the area outside of town consisted of fields and marshland as far as Wat’s Dyke. (these were known as the common fields).
Stansty, of course, was still under the ownership of Valle Crucis until Henry VIII’s Dissolution of the Monasteries from 1536; after which, the land passed into the hands of various knights, who sold off their interest. Plas Ucha, on Stansty Park was built by the Edwards family in 1577 and Plas Coch was built by the Merediths in the late 1590’s.
Henry VIII’s crown eventually passed through to his daughter-Elizabeth I, who also sold the rights of common pasture in 1581, and so most of the common fields were bought up by landowners who created new estates, and it is sometime after this date that I believe that the Crispin estate was created and the house known as The Crispin was built.

Palmer had identified two areas of the common fields, which had previously been known as ‘Pant y Crydd (shoemakers mound) and ‘twmpath y cryddion. (shoemakers hollow).
Pant y crydd’ was located in a plot of land on the fields between what is now known as Watery Lane and Mold Road, while ‘twmpath y cryddion‘ was situated off Bradley Road, where the old brewery was located before it was demolished in 2003.
Palmer believed that the name Crispin was derived from this connection with shoemakers, as St Crispin was the patron Saint of shoemakers.
I have since found that ‘Pant y Crydd’ was still a part of The Crispin estate in the late 18th Century and I have also found that an 1844 town map recorded Crispin Lane as Crid Pler Lane (Crydd Pler Lane), meaning untidy/messy shoemakers Lane’- most likely a reference to the fact that the lane was muddy until it received a gravel surface in 1854.
The Crispin Estate had been in the hands of the Ambrose Lewis family from ‘at least’ 1704 until the 1790’s when it passed into hands of the Lloyd family of the Gwrych Castle estate, through marriage, The Crispin estate appears to have then been split up and sold as leasehold, before different holders bought the leases, and a part of this estate was sold under the name of Bryn y Llyn in 1828. William Durrack then rented the house and field, and gave his name to the pond- hence Durracks Pond. A Mary Hughes was listed as the owner/occupier of the house and field around 1844 and one of our founding players- Thomas Broster (born 1845) was living in the railway cottage (Crispin Cottage) with his parents and family in 1848.
Crid Pler Lane (Crispin Lane) had evolved as a pathway on the silted up ditch of Wat’s Dyke.
I hope to provide a more comprehensive history of the house and estate in the future.
.

[Bobo99]

Thanks East Sussex, WOW what an encyclopaedia of knowledge you are. It would have taken me a month to write a reply in such depth and so precise.
I wonder if the Bryn y LLyn spring still exists. I know the council drained several ponds in Acton when they extended the council house estate. I believe they left drain covers at some of them. 9 acre field also had the remnant's of a wet area when I was growing up in the 60's, on the Rhosnessni Lane/Park Avenue corner.

[southcoastexpress]

Originally Posted by Bobo99

Thanks East Sussex, WOW what an encyclopaedia of knowledge you are. It would have taken me a month to write a reply in such depth and so precise.
I wonder if the Bryn y LLyn spring still exists. I know the council drained several ponds in Acton when they extended the council house estate. I believe they left drain covers at some of them. 9 acre field also had the remnant's of a wet area when I was growing up in the 60's, on the Rhosnessni Lane/Park Avenue corner.

I lived in Rhosnesni Lane in the 1950s and attended Acton School.To get there I used to walk along what was known as the School Path which led from a gate by the Community Centre by Oak Drive/Central Avenue to the school.Between the entrance gate and the gate to cross the road leading to Acton Hall from Chester Road there was a fair sized fenced off stagnant pond which invariably had coots on it.Us kids called it the 'Fever Pond'.The new Acton estate extension seems to have obliterated the line of the path when I had a little explore last August.Unless anyone knows otherwise?

[Dafgog]

Such a treasure- would be marvellous to have it all chronicled in a book with maps/ sketches/ photos. Is there any chance of this in the future?