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Old 6th March 2019, 13.28:33   #568-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham Football Club (Massive history thread!)

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Originally Posted by jonesfach View Post
http://www.redpassion.co.uk/forums/a...round-1880-jpg

This is the view from the Turf towards town basically.
Great Photo.
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Old 6th March 2019, 13.40:37   #569-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham Football Club (Massive history thread!)

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Originally Posted by jonesfach View Post
http://www.redpassion.co.uk/forums/a...round-1880-jpg

This is the view from the Turf towards town basically.
The lane, enclosed with hedges, beyond the white gate was the silted up ditch of Wat's Dyke https://ancientmonuments.uk/132037-w...rexham-rhosddu
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Old 6th March 2019, 14.01:54   #570-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham Football Club (Massive history thread!)

John Evans map 1793-95 also appears to show a small plot of land, or a building, in the location of the current Turf Hotel, and while magnification of the map is not very clear, it also appears to show a plot of land in the apex of the junction between Mold Road and Crispin Lane, which would later be known as The Turf Tavern Gardens.
If correct, this would push the date of the original Turf Tavern, back into the 18th Century and would also add additional weight to the idea that Y Cae Ras was the location of horse racing in Wrexham from a much earlier period than is currently accepted.
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File Type: jpg TURF TAVERN 1793 TO 1795.jpg (188.0 KB, 66 views)
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Old 28th March 2019, 13.43:12   #571-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham Football Club (Massive history thread!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhosymedre Red View Post
Great Photo.
John Evans map of 1793-95 (attached) clearly shows Wat’s Dyke as an unbroken line, following a course from what we now know as Crispin Lane, down to Felin Puleston and beyond to Wynnstay. Moreover, John Norden appears to have walked this pathway (then known as Clawdd Wad) from Acton to Stansty, in 1620. (attached). Subsequent 19th Century maps (1819 and 1833) also recorded the line of this route, which seems to have evolved as a natural trackway on the base of the ditch of Wat’s Dyke, on the Western side of Wat’s Dyke embankment (similar to the modern view, attached, at Greefield Valley).
In the 1840’s, the embankment on the Eastern side of Wat’s Dyke, began to be removed, during the construction of railway lines, while a part of the ditch (which had evolved into a lane) was then given a gravel surface in1855 ‘After the accounts had been passed, a vote of thanks was moved to J. Foulkes, Esq. and Mr. John Harrison, Surveyors, for their zeal and activity in repairing the roads and putting them into such a creditable state. The Crispin lane, that famed lovers' promenade, has now a nice gravel walk, where true love at last has a chance presented it of running smooth if it ever means to do so!’. https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4585579/4585582/11/
However, by February 1866 local residents were complaining to the Board of Highways that The Wrexham, Mold and Connahs Quay Railway Corporation were encroaching onto the public footpath (Crispin Lane-Wat’s Dyke ditch) between Rhosddu Lane (now Rhosddu Road) and the property known as The Crispin (also known as Crispin Cottage). ‘The company have also encroached upon the public thoroughfare in Crispin Lane in two or three places by setting up palings so as to narrow the footpath.’ The borough surveyor subsequently responded ‘What is going on in Rhosddu Lane will be finished in two or three days. It has been done at my request. The company would have been glad to leave it alone only I urged them to do it. Then as to the road to the Crispin, that is wider than it was before it was diverted.https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...01/4579506/27/
The following month, Thomas E Minshall from WM&CQR also confirmed ‘As regards the alleged encroachment in Crispin Lane, I have only to say that neither the available road nor footway has been interfered with, but simply a. high hedge bank forming the approach to Crispin Cottage, now the property of my company, which has been levelled and pale fences substituted along the line of the footpath.’ I.E. Wat’s Dyke Embankment (high hedge bank forming the approach to Crispin Cottage), had only been removed from Rhosddu Lane to The Crispin and the lane had only been widened in this region. https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...47/4579552/23/
Then in 1882, a member of The Cambrian Archaeological Association also complained in a letter to the local press ‘Long strips of it (The embankment) have been levelled in quite recent years along Crispin-lane and between the Bersham and Ruabon Roads. I myself saw last summer another bit of it being destroyed and we may be sure the new railway company, if they are not looked after, will sooner or later sweep away a great part of what is left. The course of the projected railroad (between the present railway bridge (on Mold Road) and the workhouse) will run either along the actual site of the dyke or along a line parallel to and abutting upon it’. https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...36/4589542/36/ The railway line in this area ran parallel to Wat’s Dyke embankment, as recorded by CADW https://ancientmonuments.uk/132059-w...130m-long-offa , with the ditch on the western side of the town boundary, under the modern surface of Crispin Lane.

Maps from 1793. 1819 and 1833 (before the railway was built) show that the field in the foreground of the photograph http://www.redpassion.co.uk/forums/a...round-1880-jpg was already in place before the railway was built, and so the lane in the photograph must be the natural boundary line; i.e. Wat’s Dyke ditch.
In effect, most of the dyke’s embankment was either grubbed out or incorporated into the railway embankment, during the construction of the railway and station, but the ditch remained intact in many places and served as a trackway, which eventually evolved into Crispin Lane.

The photograph might be the earliest photographic record of Wat’s Dyke?

Published in Wrexham Football Club 1872-1950 (Images of Sport) by Gareth M. Davies and Peter Jones, I am not sure if the book is still in print RR? as I have only ever found second hand copies. Do you know if the book is still available as new, as it might be of interest to other historians, as well as those interested in football and the history of the club?

Last edited by eastsussexred; 28th March 2019 at 13.47:28..
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Old 28th March 2019, 18.49:16   #572-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham Football Club (Massive history thread!)

Sterling work ER.
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Old 4th April 2019, 11.48:01   #573-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham Football Club (Massive history thread!)

From the Advertiser, 1914, the last Paragraph is interesting but can't find any thing on the net. http://www.redpassion.co.uk/forums/a...1&d=1554378244
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Old 4th April 2019, 12.09:09   #574-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham Football Club (Massive history thread!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhosymedre Red View Post
From the Advertiser, 1914, the last Paragraph is interesting but can't find any thing on the net. http://www.redpassion.co.uk/forums/a...1&d=1554378244
I think ESR has brought this to our attention previously, I could be wrong it's a large thread, but yes another first for Wrexham??
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Old 4th April 2019, 12.14:55   #575-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham Football Club (Massive history thread!)

Thanks, I must have missed that one.
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Old 4th April 2019, 14.43:09   #576-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham Football Club (Massive history thread!)

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I hope so terrytactics.

When I first started researching the history of The Racecourse, it seemed that it was widely accepted that The Wrexham Races were started on a new course, now known as ‘Y Cae Ras’ which was developed by Sir Watkin Williams Wynn in 1807. This seems to have arisen due to the fact that Sir Watkin had a lifelong connection with equine sport, as well as being a founding member and serving officer with a local cavalry force. It is also known that he had deliberately widened Regent Street to cater for riders and their horses to parade from their stables at Eagles Meadow up to the course on race days, and he was also known to have developed or upgraded the course around this time, as well as promoting and providing financial support, and commissioning and donating silverware as prizes
The 1807 date then appears to have been widely accepted after local author- Arthur N Shone published a book in 1999 called ‘The Wrexham Races, The Forgotten Welsh Racecourse’, in which he identified an announcement in The Chester Chronicle in 1807, which advertised (what he thought was) the first race meeting on The Racecourse. Others people since, appear to have identified different newspaper announcements from the same year, which advertised The Wrexham Races ‘on the new course’, and so it appears that the term ‘the new course’ cemented the idea that The Wrexham Races first started on The Racecourse in 1807, and this date was then circulated on the internet.
Since then, however, access to historic information through online archives, has greatly improved and I soon found a newspaper advertisement for The Wrexham Races ‘on the new course’ for a three-day meeting on 6/7/8th October 1806, followed by an article in a silversmith’s magazine, which published the design of a motif on a trophy, which was presented to the winner of The Wrexham Races in 1803.
I then found a newspaper advertisement in The Chester Courant for The Wrexham Races ‘on the new course’ consisting of a four-day meeting, which commenced on 15th September 1800, followed by another article in The Chester Chronicle, dated 7/9/1792, which advertised The Wrexham Races to take place on the 17th of the same month. This article identified that the races incorporated other ancient community sports and activities, such as smock racing and pudding eating, as well being the venue for the election of a mayor, thereby suggesting that the races had evolved as part of a much older tradition of community sport and social gatherings. This article appeared to confirm another article, written by a local author- Major Charles James Apperley, who became famous as a sport and social commentator of his time, under the pseudonym ‘Nimrod’.
Apperley wrote a series of his memoirs in Fraser’s magazine in 1842, in which he recalled going to The Wrexham Races with his childhood friend, during his bachelor days, and he described the races as little more than leatherplate races; the term ‘leatherplate’ being used to highlight a more rustic event, wherein riders sought to unseat their competitors during races by any means deemed necessary, without the gentleman’s rules that would be incorporated into the so-called sport of kings that were later frequented by the gentry of the land. By extrapolating from his age at death and his year of marriage, it is found that his bachelor days at the races would relate to a period before he joined The Ancient British Light Dragoons, to serve in Ireland from 1798.
However, the format of the races appears to have changed over time, as a number of advertisements for race meetings in Wrexham had appeared in The London Evening Post, dating from as far back as January 1739. The articles advertised a two-day meeting for The Wrexham Races ‘on the new course’ for Tuesday 7th and Wednesday 8th April 1739, with a considerable purse of £30 for the winner of the first days meeting and a £20 purse for the winner of the second day. The following year, the same newspaper also advertised another, well organised three-day meeting ‘on the new course’ from the 8th to 10th April 1740, which also offered a purse of £30 for the winner of the first days meeting and a £20 purse for each of the winners of the following days meetings. It was also published in a book in 1845 that a horse named Black Chance was the winner of one of these meetings. The advertisements from both of these years each stipulated rules and regulations akin to those which were later adopted in races in the 19th Century, which seems to suggest that The Wrexham Races were indeed an ancient custom that stretched back deep into history, and whilst occurring at least once a year, the races seem to have been sometimes better organised, and better rewarded, than at other times, when the format appears to have reverted to a more rustic meeting, which incorporated more of the traditional community activities, as identified in the reports from the 1790’s.
While initially it had seemed that Sir Watkin Williams Wynn -the 5th Baronet (1772-1840) had been responsible for the founding of The Wrexham Races, further investigation has shown that although he may have built or upgraded The Racecourse to a better standard, as well as promoting and financially supporting the races, he wasn’t really a lover of the turf, preferring instead to spend his days hunting, whereas his predecessors, at least as far back as Sir John Wynn, were more enthusiastic regarding the sport of kings.
Sir John Wynn (1628-1719) who had inherited the Watstay (Wynnstay) Estate was believed to have bred racehorses, and it was Sir John who had bought the Plas Coch Estate (where The Racecourse is now situated) in 1709. Sir Watkin’s grandfather- the 3rd Baronet then inherited the family estates when Sir John Wynn died in 1719 and his family continued to breed horses, with the 3rd Baronet having established The Ruabon Hunt, before he died when he fell from his horse while hunting at Acton Park in 1749. But it was during his lifetime that The Wrexham Races appeared in The London Evening Post (1739/40) along with an adage that there would be cockfighting at The Three Eagles in the mornings, before the races, and as The Three Eagles was owned by the Wynn family at that time, then it seems probable that The Wrexham Races were already being funded and promoted by the 3rd Baronet in the first half of the 18th Century.
When we consider where the racing took place in Wrexham, during the 18th Century, we are told by The London Evening Post that The Wrexham Races were held on ‘the new course’ in 1739 and 1740. Likewise, we also know that the races were also held on ‘the new course’ (Y Cae Ras) in 1800. It might therefore follow that there were two different racecourse locations; unless, that is, the location remained the same (Y Cae Ras) but the course was revamped as a new course in both the 18th and 19th Centuries. The latter appears to have been the case, due to the remarkable research of Alfred Neobard Palmer.
Palmer, who is regarded as the finest Wrexham historian of his time, published a series of 10 books on the local history of the area, at the end of 19th Century. There are a number of references to The Racecourse in its current location in his books, but only in the context of the 19th Century, which in itself seems to confirm that the location of The Racecourse had never been any different, as Palmer had specifically researched the fields and Streets of Wrexham
In his work ‘The Town, Fields and Folks of Wrexham in The Times of James The First’ Alfred Palmer had translated the oldest Latin records available to him since the early medieval period and made no reference to any racecourse. His research was based on a survey for Charles- Prince of Wales by John Norden, in 1620, although Norden’s Survey did not include land which had been previously owned by Valle Crucis Abbey, such as Stansty, which was not a part of the Prince’s estate. However, his book also gave commentary on those same areas up to the 19th Century and Palmer would most certainly have made reference to a racecourse, if another course was present in the town, as he was specifically providing a social history of the town in his work. In fact, of all of the known, main, published works on the history of Wrexham, no one has ever identified, or even suggested another location for a racecourse in the town, other than its current location. Therefore, it seems logical to deduce that the current racecourse has been a venue for community and sporting activity since at least 1739. Moreover ‘The Welsh history Review’ which is an academic paper from The University of Wales, has previously identified that the Myddleton family of Chirk Castle had been paying subscriptions to race meetings at Wrexham, since before 1700, and so the history of Y Cae Ras may well be pushed back into the 17th Century, at a later date.

In addition to access to proof documents, this is a summary of the evidence that I have submitted to archives.gov.uk, to have Y Cae Ras recognised as a sports venue, which has been in existence since at least 1739.
I have also added that The Turf Hotel appears to be the oldest public house at any sport stadium in the world, and given a history of the land that the racecourse was built on, in the context of events that have significance, in terms of the birth of Wales as a nation.
As confirmed by Alfred Neobard Palmer, Richard Williams (the brother of the first Sir Watkin Williams Wynn) lived at the property known as The Crispin, on Crispin Lane, during the 1730's. He would later become an MP for Flint and he also inherited the Penbedw Estate (Nannerch).
Ogilbys Road map of 1675 (previously attached) had shown that The Crispin was a substantial property in the region, at least on par with Plas Coch, but the entire area had previously been named after the Crispin, including the land that The Racecourse was built on, as shown on the map from 1793-95 (attached).
Richard Williams of Penbedw died at Oswestry in 1759, but an artcle in the Shrewsbury Chronicle of 1774 (attached) confirmed that he had been a breeder of hunt and race horses 'The above mare was called Vendecea and bred by the late Richard Williams Esq of Penbedw' and that he was still being credited with his stud, some 15 years after his death.
The property known as The Crispin was known to still have stables in the mid 19th Century, when it was demolished, but Richard Williams occupancy of the the property during the 1730's also makes it likely that he was breeding horses on Crispin Lane, as he was a man of means; landed gentry who was a member of the two most powerful and wealthy families in Wales (the Williams's and the Wynn's). When added to this, the fact that The London Evening Post were advertising The Wrexham Races on the 'new Course' in 1739, while Richard Williams lived at The Crispin, and the William's Wynn's were promoting the races, then it seems probable that it was Richard Williams who bought horseracing to those fields off Crispin Lane, some 70 years before Sir Watkin Williams Wynn (4th Bart) was credited with building Y Cae Ras.

Last edited by eastsussexred; 4th April 2019 at 14.54:38..
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