The massive Wrexham AFC history thread (The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham...)

[Canary]

Originally Posted by eastsussexred

Hi Canary; thank you for the information. I had wondered what had happened to this John Taylor, but lost track after he had been sent to prison.
It would be nice to find 'Jos Roberts' from the original 1864 match against the fire brigade as it would finally establish the original 10 man team of Wrexham Football and Athletic Club. I do have one strong candidate, but just can't find the definitive evidence that links this particular person to that team.

I have been able to establish that Joseph Roberts was described as a "new member" when Wrexham CC played Hawarden in 1857 - the report is 18 July 1857. And when the Provincial Insurance Company opened the new gymnasium in 1863, Joseph Roberts was described as an employee. But I guess you knew this (I have not gone through this thread in fine detail). There is a newspaper announcement in the Wrexham Advertiser of 25 February 1860 that the wife of Joseph Roberts, accountant of 6 Penybryn, gave birth to a daughter on 22 February 1860. The term accountant could be significant because E A Cross, who worked for the Provincial, was also termed an accountant. Frustratingly the 1861 census for 6 Penybryn shows the Zachary family living there. Interestingly, the son was a William C Zachary who just happened to be an insurance clerk and played for the Provincial cricket team. More work needed, as they say, which may take me a little time.

[eastsussexred]

There are a number of online sources which state that the Turf Hotel was built by Jack Scott of The Seven Stars when the original Turf Tavern was demolished in the 1860’s. This is incorrect; John James (Jack) Scott was born in 1853 and therefore too young to build a public house in the 1860’s..
The Turf Hotel was built as an extension onto the original Turf Tavern around 1854, with landlord John Whittaker holding a house-warming event on the premises in August 1855.
https://newspapers.library.wales/vie.../turf%20tavern

The Turf Tavern, which was built sometime prior to 1819, was never demolished and still exists today as the lower section of the Turf Hotel (where the old club shop is).
The Turf Hotel had major renovation works in 1913/14; with cast iron columns that held up the balcony, being taken out, and a new external wall extending the ground floor on the Racecourse elevation (see attachment 1). At the same time, the external false-timber-panels on the first floor were bricked up and rendered, and new windows were installed in their original location. (See attachment 2). The doorway onto the balcony was also bricked up and rendered, and the adjoining walls between the tavern and the hotel were mostly removed, with cross beams being supported by the iron columns which were salvaged from under the original balcony. The envelope of the hotel remains pretty much as it was when it was first built.
The adjoining brick-built Turf Tavern, was not demolished, but had windows replaced and was rendered to match the hotel, although the hotel had newly designed window surrounds and a new roof with fancy ridge tiles and different chimney pots; the fireplaces and much of the internal structure remained the same as it was when it was first built, as can be seen from a plan of a survey by Geoff Ward of the royal commission for Ancient monuments in Wales, in 2007 (attachment 3). The plan shows the original structure of both the tavern and the hotel, with the blocked-off fireplaces in the hotel and the chimney stack walls as they are today.
I have added the red sections on the survey for clarity.

The survey report can be found here
https://coflein.gov.uk/en/site/40621...d-road-wrexham

There are a number of subtle differences, between the tavern section and the hotel section, which can still be seen from outside; not least the traditional roof of the tavern which runs into the eaves of the hotel. In addition to the different heights of the floors between each section, the chimney pots and ridge tiles of the two sections are different; the window surrounds are different; stone sills are a different thickness; the splash course of the hotel is higher than that of the tavern and of the quoin corners of each is different.

When he surveyed the premises, Geoff Ward would not have been aware that an OS map would later surface, which showed that the Turf Tavern was already in existence in 1819, and local papers reported that the landlords were Joseph and Margaret Foulkes in 1819.
At the time of the survey, the earliest mention of The Turf had come from the North Wales Commercial' (Business Directory) in 1844, and so Geoff Ward had assumed that the Tavern was built in 1840 to1844, but knocked down just 20 years later and rebuilt. But newspaper reports of John Whittaker’s house-warming show that the Hotel was built in 1854 (as an extension onto the tavern) at a time when other newspapers also reported that the original Mold Road Stand was also built, and the inside of The Turf Tavern was renovated, with the inclusion of offices for race officials and a weighing room, with changing rooms later being added above.
https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...rexham%20races

The original Turf Tavern section (pre 1819) of The Turf Hotel, still exists today, and makes The Turf Hotel the oldest public house at any sport stadium in the world.

If anyone has any evidence to the contrary, I would appreciate if could you please let me know

[louisleftboot]

Fantastic work there, great research!

[eastsussexred]

Originally Posted by eastsussexred

There are a number of online sources which state that the Turf Hotel was built by Jack Scott of The Seven Stars when the original Turf Tavern was demolished in the 1860’s. This is incorrect; John James (Jack) Scott was born in 1853 and therefore too young to build a public house in the 1860’s..
The Turf Hotel was built as an extension onto the original Turf Tavern around 1854, with landlord John Whittaker holding a house-warming event on the premises in August 1855.
https://newspapers.library.wales/vie.../turf%20tavern

The Turf Tavern, which was built sometime prior to 1819, was never demolished and still exists today as the lower section of the Turf Hotel (where the old club shop is).
The Turf Hotel had major renovation works in 1913/14; with cast iron columns that held up the balcony, being taken out, and a new external wall extending the ground floor on the Racecourse elevation (see attachment 1). At the same time, the external false-timber-panels on the first floor were bricked up and rendered, and new windows were installed in their original location. (See attachment 2). The doorway onto the balcony was also bricked up and rendered, and the adjoining walls between the tavern and the hotel were mostly removed, with cross beams being supported by the iron columns which were salvaged from under the original balcony. The envelope of the hotel remains pretty much as it was when it was first built.
The adjoining brick-built Turf Tavern, was not demolished, but had windows replaced and was rendered to match the hotel, although the hotel had newly designed window surrounds and a new roof with fancy ridge tiles and different chimney pots; the fireplaces and much of the internal structure remained the same as it was when it was first built, as can be seen from a plan of a survey by Geoff Ward of the royal commission for Ancient monuments in Wales, in 2007 (attachment 3). The plan shows the original structure of both the tavern and the hotel, with the blocked-off fireplaces in the hotel and the chimney stack walls as they are today.
I have added the red sections on the survey for clarity.

The survey report can be found here
https://coflein.gov.uk/en/site/40621...d-road-wrexham

There are a number of subtle differences, between the tavern section and the hotel section, which can still be seen from outside; not least the traditional roof of the tavern which runs into the eaves of the hotel. In addition to the different heights of the floors between each section, the chimney pots and ridge tiles of the two sections are different; the window surrounds are different; stone sills are a different thickness; the splash course of the hotel is higher than that of the tavern and of the quoin corners of each is different.

When he surveyed the premises, Geoff Ward would not have been aware that an OS map would later surface, which showed that the Turf Tavern was already in existence in 1819, and local papers reported that the landlords were Joseph and Margaret Foulkes in 1819.
At the time of the survey, the earliest mention of The Turf had come from the North Wales Commercial' (Business Directory) in 1844, and so Geoff Ward had assumed that the Tavern was built in 1840 to1844, but knocked down just 20 years later and rebuilt. But newspaper reports of John Whittaker’s house-warming show that the Hotel was built in 1854 (as an extension onto the tavern) at a time when other newspapers also reported that the original Mold Road Stand was also built, and the inside of The Turf Tavern was renovated, with the inclusion of offices for race officials and a weighing room, with changing rooms later being added above.
https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...rexham%20races

The original Turf Tavern section (pre 1819) of The Turf Hotel, still exists today, and makes The Turf Hotel the oldest public house at any sport stadium in the world.

If anyone has any evidence to the contrary, I would appreciate if could you please let me know

Alternatively, the hotel section could have been built as an extension of the tavern in 1840-44, as stated by Geoff Ward, when John Tench was landlord (owned by the Williams-Wynn’s) and the hotel section may have been originally opened as The Grandstand.
As previously mentioned, the hotel section of the tavern was called The Grandstand briefly in the 1840’s, most likely a reference to the balcony, which overlooked the course, although the name did not stick; it was usually referred to as The Turf Tavern and by the 1860’s The Turf Hotel. But Jack Scott did not demolish the hotel section at this time; he wasn’t born until 1853; he was a landlord of The Seven Stars and briefly landlord of The Turf Hotel in the late 1890’s, until it was sold to a Wrexham solicitor in 1899 and consequently passed into the hands of the Soames family. At this time Jack Scott left The Turf and the license was transferred to Robert Darwood in 1900. Jack Scott then rebuilt The Seven Stars in 1904, but The Turf Hotel section of the property wasn’t renovated until around 1913/14, when Frederick Soames was the owner.

[eastsussexred]

Originally Posted by eastsussexred

There are a number of online sources which state that the Turf Hotel was built by Jack Scott of The Seven Stars when the original Turf Tavern was demolished in the 1860’s. This is incorrect; John James (Jack) Scott was born in 1853 and therefore too young to build a public house in the 1860’s..
The Turf Hotel was built as an extension onto the original Turf Tavern around 1854, with landlord John Whittaker holding a house-warming event on the premises in August 1855.
https://newspapers.library.wales/vie.../turf%20tavern

The Turf Tavern, which was built sometime prior to 1819, was never demolished and still exists today as the lower section of the Turf Hotel (where the old club shop is).
The Turf Hotel had major renovation works in 1913/14; with cast iron columns that held up the balcony, being taken out, and a new external wall extending the ground floor on the Racecourse elevation (see attachment 1). At the same time, the external false-timber-panels on the first floor were bricked up and rendered, and new windows were installed in their original location. (See attachment 2). The doorway onto the balcony was also bricked up and rendered, and the adjoining walls between the tavern and the hotel were mostly removed, with cross beams being supported by the iron columns which were salvaged from under the original balcony. The envelope of the hotel remains pretty much as it was when it was first built.
The adjoining brick-built Turf Tavern, was not demolished, but had windows replaced and was rendered to match the hotel, although the hotel had newly designed window surrounds and a new roof with fancy ridge tiles and different chimney pots; the fireplaces and much of the internal structure remained the same as it was when it was first built, as can be seen from a plan of a survey by Geoff Ward of the royal commission for Ancient monuments in Wales, in 2007 (attachment 3). The plan shows the original structure of both the tavern and the hotel, with the blocked-off fireplaces in the hotel and the chimney stack walls as they are today.
I have added the red sections on the survey for clarity.

The survey report can be found here
https://coflein.gov.uk/en/site/40621...d-road-wrexham

There are a number of subtle differences, between the tavern section and the hotel section, which can still be seen from outside; not least the traditional roof of the tavern which runs into the eaves of the hotel. In addition to the different heights of the floors between each section, the chimney pots and ridge tiles of the two sections are different; the window surrounds are different; stone sills are a different thickness; the splash course of the hotel is higher than that of the tavern and of the quoin corners of each is different.

When he surveyed the premises, Geoff Ward would not have been aware that an OS map would later surface, which showed that the Turf Tavern was already in existence in 1819, and local papers reported that the landlords were Joseph and Margaret Foulkes in 1819.
At the time of the survey, the earliest mention of The Turf had come from the North Wales Commercial' (Business Directory) in 1844, and so Geoff Ward had assumed that the Tavern was built in 1840 to1844, but knocked down just 20 years later and rebuilt. But newspaper reports of John Whittaker’s house-warming show that the Hotel was built in 1854 (as an extension onto the tavern) at a time when other newspapers also reported that the original Mold Road Stand was also built, and the inside of The Turf Tavern was renovated, with the inclusion of offices for race officials and a weighing room, with changing rooms later being added above.
https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...rexham%20races

The original Turf Tavern section (pre 1819) of The Turf Hotel, still exists today, and makes The Turf Hotel the oldest public house at any sport stadium in the world.

If anyone has any evidence to the contrary, I would appreciate if could you please let me know

Originally Posted by eastsussexred

Alternatively, the hotel section could have been built as an extension of the tavern in 1840-44, as stated by Geoff Ward, when John Tench was landlord (owned by the Williams-Wynn’s) and the hotel section may have been originally opened as The Grandstand.
As previously mentioned, the hotel section of the tavern was called The Grandstand briefly in the 1840’s, most likely a reference to the balcony, which overlooked the course, although the name did not stick; it was usually referred to as The Turf Tavern and by the 1860’s The Turf Hotel. But Jack Scott did not demolish the hotel section at this time; he wasn’t born until 1853; he was a landlord of The Seven Stars and briefly landlord of The Turf Hotel in the late 1890’s, until it was sold to a Wrexham solicitor in 1899 and consequently passed into the hands of the Soames family. At this time Jack Scott left The Turf and the license was transferred to Robert Darwood in 1900. Jack Scott then rebuilt The Seven Stars in 1904, but The Turf Hotel section of the property wasn’t renovated until around 1913/14, when Frederick Soames was the owner.

Conformation from The Chester Chronicle, dated 25th August 1848, that The Turf Hotel was originally known as “The Grandstand” and had been built as an extension onto the existing Turf Tavern , most likely in 1840.

Wrexham Cricket Club played a return match against Chester on Wrexham Racecourse, and at the end of the game ‘the parties dined together in the large room of “The Grandstand” where an excellent dinner was well served up and the social board was liberally served up by Mr Tench, the respected host of The Turf Tavern.

An earlier article from 1841 also reported that after a cricket match against Llangollen, both teams sat down to a dinner provided by Mrs Tench, in “The Grandstand”.

Another newspaper report from 1851 stated ‘After the game, the gentlemen retired to satisfy their appetites to mine hostess , Mrs Tench, of The Grandstand’.


The name “Grandstand” only appeared in the 1840’s and did not last too long, changing to The Turf Hotel after 1854, when a permanent grandstand had been built on the course.
The name ‘Turf Tavern’ had been recorded since at least 1819 and was still widely used until the 1860’s when both sections of the building became more commonly known as The Turf Hotel.

[eastsussexred]

Originally Posted by terrytactics

Really good work ESR. Waiting with interest to see if anything comes of your research within the various corridors of power.

I understand that The Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales are re-evaluating their records on the data base of The National Monuments Record of Wales and are undertaking due diligence with regard to all of the new evidence concerning the history of horse racing in Wrexham, Y Cae Ras, the land on which it was built and The Turf Hotel etc...
I am hoping that this new evidence will receive official recognition in due course.

[jonesfach]

Originally Posted by eastsussexred

I understand that The Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales are re-evaluating their records on the data base of The National Monuments Record of Wales and are undertaking due diligence with regard to all of the new evidence concerning the history of horse racing in Wrexham, Y Cae Ras, the land on which it was built and The Turf Hotel etc...
I am hoping that this new evidence will receive official recognition in due course.

Fingers crossed ESR

[eastsussexred]

Having re-evaluated old maps of the area, I am now finally beginning to home in on the complete history of The Turf Hotel.

We know from a map that the older Turf Tavern section of the premises was already in existence in 1819, and a newspaper article from the same year stated that Joseph and Margaret Foulkes were the landlords, but another map from 1793-95 (previously attached) also shows either a building or a very small plot of land, in the tavern’s location, which was separated from the large field behind it (the course) by a boundary line or hedge.
As the Williams-Wynne Estate owned all of the land mentioned, it would therefore seem logical to presume that either the tavern was already in existence in 1793-95 or a plot of land had been sectioned off from The Racecourse, specifically for the construction of The Turf Tavern, when the area was surveyed, prior to the compilation of the 1793-95 map.

We also now know that the taller section of the premises, where the bar is today, was originally known as The Grandstand, and from other newspaper articles we know that meals were being served in this section, by the landlord and lady of The Turf Tavern, during sports events from at least 1841 to at least 1858.
I had originally thought that this taller section, called The Grandstand, was built as an extension directly onto the town end of the lower Turf Tavern, but I now think that is not quite true. The section called The Grandstand was separated from the tavern by a courtyard around 3mtrs wide, although it was in-effect, a part of the same establishment, owned by the Williams-Wynn Estate.
The Turf Tavern shown on the 1819 map is indicated by a dot, with the words ‘Turf Tavern’ written next to it, but the map gives no indication as to the size or shape of the premises, whereas maps from 1872, 1874, 1898, 1909, 1912 and 1938 all show the size and footprint of the two buildings, conjoined, pretty much as they are today as The Turf Hotel. However, there is another map, dating from 1833 (attached) which shows The Grandstand as an independent building, separated from the tavern, and which I had originally thought as being a stable-block, belonging to the tavern. But having recently found out that the taller section was called The Grandstand, I now believe that the separate block on the map is in fact The Grandstand. Later photographs and newspaper articles would provide an indication as to why The Grandstand was built, and when the two buildings were physically linked together.

Letters to The Wrexham Advertiser tell us that in the earlier days of racing, the course was frequented by the gentry of the land, but as the population of the town grew during the industrial revolution, the so-called working classes moved in and the meetings began to suffer from rowdiness, violence, theft and drink related issues.
The Grandstand would therefore appear to have been built as a kind of, what we might refer to today, as function rooms or corporate rooms, with direct views out to the finish post, where the more well-healed clientele could dine and drink in style, while watching the races, without the need to mingle with the chavs in the tavern or in the numerous food and beer tents on the course. They could also watch the races from the balcony, which incidently, may have originally been installed around the entire building (not just the racecourse side) as can be seen from the string course, at the same height of the base of the rear balcony, on both the Mold Road and kop gates elevations (attached).
The Grandstand was not just operational during race meetings though, as we know that it also served as the posh section of the tavern for events and meetings, as well as a restaurant that was used by The Wrexham Cricket Club and their visiting opponents after cricket matches: but it was the events associated with the Wrexham Races that would ultimately decide this buildings future. In 1854, the older Turf Tavern section of the building was renovated internally, to provide offices and a weighing room for race-officials, while a new permanent stone built grandstand was also built for the masses, at the opposite end of the tavern. Unfortunately, within four years, the races had been stopped, although pony racing would be gradually re-introduced, a few years later, but the gentry of the land ceased to attend theses meetings, and so the roof of the tavern was extended to join the two buildings together, with a covered alleyway (as can be seen in the photo from 1906 attached). At the same time, a growing rail network, and the taverns close proximity to Wrexham General Station, is likely to have provided an opportunity for the tavern to provide additional accommodation for travellers, and so The Grandstand was converted accordingly and renamed ‘The Turf Hotel’ sometime after 1858.
The name ‘Grandstand’ was eventually forgotten.

Since the end of 19th Century, The Racecourse had been competing against other grounds in Wales, to host Welsh football international matches, and in December of 1912 Wrexham FC officials made a pledge to The Football Association of Wales that the club would upgrade the pitch and facilities, in order to host the international match against Scotland on 3rd March 1913. Improvements were made to the existing stands on the course and new terraced banks were constructed behind the goals, while renovation of The Turf Hotel was also started as part of the improvements at this time. New windows and doors were installed and the false-half- timber- panels at the rear of the property were ripped out and replaced with the rendered panels that can still be seen today. The original door to the balcony was blocked off with rendered panels and the covered alley between the two buildings was finally bricked up, forming the lounge that connected The Grandstand and the tavern sections, as it is today.
The extent of building works during this period also forced the guarantors of The Wrexham Races to announce that they would no longer fund the October race meetings, and so the races were abandoned; though, the building works were most likely just the final nail in the coffin for race meetings on the course as the number of guarantors had dwindled from 24 in 1890, to just 6 in 1912, and public interest in the races had all but dried up.

The Turf Hotel has been renovated many times over the years, but there are still plenty of internal and external features, which provide a great deal of indication about its past. By combining this information with historic newspaper reports and the details recorded on old maps, it is has been possible compile the following Chronology.

The first building on this land appears to have been The Turf Tavern, which was either, already in existence in 1793-95, or had been allocated a plot of land, ready for its construction, around this time.
The Grandstand was added later, sometime prior to 1833.
The tavern section was renovated to include office space for race officials in 1854 and the two sections of the property were brought together and renamed The Turf Hotel at the end of the 1850’s. Initially, the two sections were linked only on the first floor, with an alley dividing the properties at ground level, but both ends of the alley were bricked off to form a lounge area, sometime after 1906, and most likely during the 1913/14 renovations.
The hotel has since been renovated periodically, including the 1990’s, when the original cast iron columns that held up the balcony were removed and a new wall was added at the back of the hotel in order to extend the bar area. At the same time, much of the dividing wall between the original two sections of the property was removed at ground floor level, to give the open plan floor space of the lounge area that can be seen today.

Turf Hotel- date of construction- circa 1793.

[Mr Wonderful]

Just a general query ER (being nosey in other words), are you a Wrexham lad originally & if so whereabouts did you hail from?