The massive Wrexham AFC history thread (The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham...)

[Cymru_Am_Byth_WXM]

Originally Posted by eastsussexred

I have also previously emailed FAW regarding our history, but didn't receive a response, though I will be writing to them again this week to request that they increase the profile of WAFC and Y Cae Ras in their documentation and on their web sites, to reflect its significance in terms of the history of Welsh football.

It’s a difficult one to recommend who to send it to as there isn’t a historian at the FAW offices in Cardiff. Maybe make it for the attention of the media department when you submit the email so it has the best possible chance?

[eastsussexred]

Originally Posted by Cymru_Am_Byth_WXM

It’s a difficult one to recommend who to send it to as there isn’t a historian at the FAW offices in Cardiff. Maybe make it for the attention of the media department when you submit the email so it has the best possible chance?

Thanks CABW, I think that is a good suggestion and will try it over the weekend

[eastsussexred]

Originally Posted by eastsussexred

A new impetus from the poster named ‘Canary’ has helped to finally confirm the identity of the last unknown player of the 10-man-team who played against The Prince of Wales Fire Brigade, in our first ever game on 22nd October 1864.
Joseph Roberts was born in Oswestry, on the 21st May 1837 and he was baptised at The Welsh Chapel on Castle Lane, on 9th July 1837
The son of Frederick Roberts (b- 1804) and Jane Davies (b- 1807) Joseph Roberts had a brothers- Benjamin (b 1843) and two sisters- Jane (b-1833) and Elizabeth (b 1836). His father was a Miller/Flour Dealer and Maltster
The family moved to Wrexham where they were recorded in the 1851 Census as living near to The Racecourse, at 46 Mold Road. Frederick, then 51, was listed as a Miller and Corn Factor (dealer) who lived with his wife- Jane (45) daughter- Jane (17) Elizabeth (15) and Joseph (13). Joseph’s brother - Benjamin (9) is believed to have been living at a boarding school in Chester, at this time.

Frederick Roberts owned a bakery on Town Hill, Wrexham, which was destroyed by fire on 28th November 1853 https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...96/4462500/38/ and he wrote a letter to the directors of The Provincial Welsh Insurance Company, to thank them for their ‘great promptitude and fairness with which they had paid the claim’ which was published in The North Wales Chronicle on 10th December 1853 https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...505/4462506/1/ although the property was only partially insured and the losses incurred as a result of the fire brought a period of financial instability for the family.
By 1861, the family had moved to 5 College Street, Wrexham, where Frederick was described as a Provisions Dealer and Maltster, who lived with his wife-Jane, his son- Benjamin, daughter- Jane and grandchildren- Thomas Howes (1) and Elizabeth G (2 weeks). Jane’s husband, an accountant by the name of Thomas Howes Roberts is also listed as living at the property, as too is Joseph’s wife- Martha Roberts (30) although Joseph is not mentioned, as it is believed that he may have been away on business in America.
Frederick Roberts was later declared a bankrupt; although he was subsequently discharged from bankruptcy at Liverpool Bankruptcy Court on 13th May 1864
https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...16/4446922/49/ and he continued to trade at his shop in Wrexham, as reported in 1868. https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...07/4580012/27/ Frederick was then listed as a miller and baker, who lived with his wife and two daughters at 2 Abbott Street, Wrexham, in the 1871 Census, but he died at the age of 76, at Manchester House, in Colwyn Bay, on 26th April 1880. https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...65/3559069/34/


Within the context of this general history of the family, it has been possible to determine the events that would lead to Joseph Roberts being employed as an agent or clerk for The Provincial Welsh Insurance Company, where he was enrolled onto their cricket team, and subsequently made the connections that would result in him being one of the 10 founding players of Wrexham Football and Athletics Club, in 1864.

A court case from 1857 showed that Joseph Roberts had worked for a Mr Evans of Queen Street in 1854; most likely due to the financial issues endured by the Roberts family, due to the fire at their Bakers shop, in the previous year.
https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...83/4586986/12/
Another court case relating to the unpaid wages for a thirteen week period from September 1856, showed that Joseph Roberts had also worked as a book keeper for a Maltster in Wrexham, named as Mr Hughes. https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...57/4587461/38/
Joseph then became a new member of the Wrexham Cricket Club and played his first match against Hawarden, on The Racecourse Ground in June 1857 https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...08/4586911/12/ and again played for the cricket club against a united team of Wrexham, on The Racecourse in August 1857. https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...n%20racecourse
Joseph married Martha Hughes at Penybryn Chapel, Wrexham on 5 May 1859. They had three daughters: Elizabeth Jane (b-1860) Annie Poole (b-1863) Edith Alice (b-1868) and two sons David Frederick Roberts (b-1864) and Frederick E D Roberts (b-1865) although David died in 1864 and Frederick in 1865.
In February of 1863, Joseph Roberts was one of 32 insurance clerks and agents who wrote a letter of thanks (published in The Wrexham Advertiser) to the directors of The Provincial Welsh Insurance Company, after the company had installed a new gymnasium and reading room at their office in Wrexham. https://newspapers.library.wales/vie.../55/Provincial
Most of the clerks identified in the letter would later become founding members of Wrexham Football and Athletic Club, and many would play for the team in the earliest days of football on The Racecourse, including George Rumsey Johnson, who had also partnered Joseph Roberts as a member of the Provincial Welsh Insurance Cricket team in a match against Wrexham Cricket Club on 25th June 1864. https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...09/4579214/28/
Four months later, both G. R. Johnson and Joseph Roberts would play for Wrexham Football and Athletic Club, in the clubs first ever game against The Prince of Wales Fire Brigade at The Racecourse Ground, on 22nd October 1864. https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...55/4579360/19/


Joseph Roberts later moved to Chester where he was listed in the 1871 Census as living at 11 Pathway, St John’s, Chester with his wife Martha and two daughters – Annie P (11) and Edith A (3). Joseph’s occupation was listed as an “agent and corn dealer employing 1 man and 2 boys”. But by 1881, the family had moved to St Asaph, where they lived with Joseph’s brother-in- law, Thomas Howes Roberts, at Jesamine Cottage. Thomas, who was an accountant by profession, was also the Chairman of The St Asaph Board of Guardians and of the St. Asaph Rural District Council. The census for this year stated that Joseph (43) was a retired victualler whose wife-Martha was aged 43 and his daughter Edith was aged 13.
It is not known when the family moved from St. Asaph, but the 1891 census recorded that Joseph Roberts was living at 85 Huskisson Street, Liverpool, with his wife and two daughters – Annie P Roberts (28) and Edith Alice Roberts (23); his occupation was listed as ‘accountant’.
Joseph Roberts died in Liverpool in 1894, while Martha remained in Liverpool, where she died in 1907.

Joseph Roberts
Born Oswestry- 1837
Died Liverpool- 1894

Charles Edward Kershaw (Captain)
Born Saddleworth (Yorks) 1839. Died Southport 1874.

William Tootell
Born Nottingham 1831. Died Wrexham 1866

Thomas Henry Sykes
Born Huddersfield 1840. Died Nottingham 1910

Thomas Broster
Born Wrexham 1845. Died Bethlehem, South Africa 1921

Thomas Hanmer
Born Overton 1839. Died Wrexham 1887

Edward Ephraim Knibbs
Born Chester 1837. Died Wrexham 1875

Thomas Heath
Born Ramsbury (Wilts) 1824. Died Wycombe 1887.

John Taylor
Born Wrexham 1842. Died Newcastle 1895

George Rumsey Johnston
Born Bangor 1843. Died Denbighshire 1912

This concludes the list of the 10 men who played for Wrexham Football and Athletic Club in the clubs first ever game against 10 men of The Prince of Wales Fire Brigade, at The Racecourse, on 22nd October 1864.
I will now forward this list to the club, the FAW and Coflein to seek approval for a plaque to be erected at Y Cae Ras in recognition of these pioneers.

There is a photo of Joseph Roberts and his wife Martha, which I have attached to my post on the previous page of this thread. The date of the photo is unknown, although it was obviously taken when they were both in old age.

I have since been in contact with a descendant of Joseph Roberts wife- Martha.
He has kindly forwarded me records relating to Joseph Roberts, which shows that when the couple married in 1859, Joseph was listed as a book keeper, and in 1864, the couple lived at Crescent Terrace, Wrexham, where he was recorded as a writing clerk. In 1866, the couple lived at Roderick Terrace, Wrexham and Joseph was still listed as a writing clerk.
Writing clerk's were usually employed by banks, solicitors and insurance companies; hence his connection to The Provincial Insurance Company.
At the time of his death in Liverpool 1894, Joseph was listed as an accountant

[eastsussexred]

Originally Posted by eastsussexred

As can be seen from the attached OS maps, the kiosk/pavillion was built sometime between 1898 and 1909. The 1898 map shows no kiosk whereas subsequent maps show the kiosk in place until it was finally demolished. The 1912 map also shows that a gate was added, onto the bowling green. The 1939 attachment confirms that this was the same kiosk seen in later photographs, and strongly indicates that the bowling green was introduced on The Racecourse between 1898 and 1909 (as per Mr Wonderful's earlier suspicion)

More confirmation that The Turf Bowling Club was in existence prior to the commencement of the first world war in 1914

'Lieutenant William Noel Soames died in Minia, Egypt on 18 May 1916
Second and eldest surviving son of Mr Frederick William Soames, Bryn Estyn Hall, near Wrexham. Before the war he was manager of Messrs F W Soames and Co Brewery, Wrexham. Also vice-president of Wrexham Football Club, president of the Turf Bowling Club and a Freemason.'


https://www.shropshirearchives.org.u...916_5_4_345249

https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...51/4242057/35/

[eastsussexred]

Originally Posted by Cymru_Am_Byth_WXM

Amazing work. You should publish your findings so it’s preserved forever.

Having spoken to a couple of other people CAB, I think that you are probably correct, and so I will start collating all of the information into book.

[Cymru_Am_Byth_WXM]

Originally Posted by eastsussexred

Having spoken to a couple of other people CAB, I think that you are probably correct, and so I will start collating all of the information into book.

Definitely enough information in this thread to sustain one. Would make fascinating reading.

[pagl]

In summary would probably be a good interactive display in the museum.

[eastsussexred]

Originally Posted by jonesfach

Shame we can't see the tents on some of the other photos to tie them in with relation the the turf. It looks to me that in the first pic there are some people on the racetrack(old mold road paddock) before or after a race?? They are definately standing in between 2 sets of fences...

The other thing to note, unless you already have done is that the meeting in in September. Obviously after the cricket season? And before football season to prevent damage?

We know from newspaper reports that the course was upgraded in the latter part of the 19th Century, with spiked railings installed along the boundary of Mold Road, and so from the camera angle of the two photo's taken in the paddock in 1912 we can say that the paddock for horses was located just past the original (1854) MRS on Mold Road- today this would be on the mold road, in the corner of the boundary between the techend and the MRS, as attachment 1. The spectators in the background are on a raised bank and the camera angle shows that this had to be the raised bank behind the Plas Coch end of the football pitch.
We also now know from the photo's that the original start line was located just off Crispin Lane- where the training pitch is today, with the finish post directly opposite the Turf. I have added another attachment to show the layout of course, as it was in 1838.

[jonesfach]

Originally Posted by eastsussexred

We know from newspaper reports that the course was upgraded in the latter part of the 19th Century, with spiked railings installed along the boundary of Mold Road, and so from the camera angle of the two photo's taken in the paddock in 1912 we can say that the paddock for horses was located just past the original (1854) MRS on Mold Road- today this would be on the mold road, in the corner of the boundary between the techend and the MRS, as attachment 1. The spectators in the background are on a raised bank and the camera angle shows that this had to be the raised bank behind the Plas Coch end of the football pitch.
We also now know from the photo's that the original start line was located just off Crispin Lane- where the training pitch is today, with the finish post directly opposite the Turf. I have added another attachment to show the layout of course, as it was in 1838.

Yes pretty spot on with all the matching evidence you have dug up.

Hence, the actual football/cricket pitches are fairly protected, from the horses chewing the ground up, as they would be on the inside of the racetrack.