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Old 16th May 2018, 12.31:19   #121-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some facts - not false news.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Sweeney View Post
You should address your questions to the board; I don't have the answers.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but in my experience just assuming other people think like you, or expecting them to do things as you want them to be done, doesn't work. You need to raise it with them and have an input, and find out the reasoning behind their current way of doing things.

The club doesn't run itself; it requires people to donate their time, expertise and/or ideas. If you have any of those, then you should give them to the WST board.
You say you don't have the answers yet you point out that I am wrong. Hmmm how do you know I am wrong - do you think I haven't put forward any ideas?

My expectations are that we have a board that will define aims/goals and then have a plan to carry them out - that's all I am saying. Why should I have to contact them to see if they are working as surely they should be reporting to the owners that a) worked but b) didn't and we need to refine it.

You seem to be defensive for the sake of it when you don't have all the facts either. I have asked you if you think membership is working but you fail to answer because to do so would then be seen as being critical of the establishment.

I work with teams in Holland and they decide something and get it done, they don't have all this - cant do this, cant do that PC stuff. Put something in place and then go for it. That's what we should be doing and my main criticism is that to me and other outsiders then it seems everyone has to take things to the board when it should be the board taking it to the customers and potential customers.

Rather than be completely defensive then open your mind to the possibilities of making thing happen. There is some great work done by media team and others but we need to see it right across the board.
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Old 16th May 2018, 13.07:10   #122-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some facts - not false news.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pagl View Post
You say you don't have the answers yet you point out that I am wrong. Hmmm how do you know I am wrong - do you think I haven't put forward any ideas?

My expectations are that we have a board that will define aims/goals and then have a plan to carry them out - that's all I am saying. Why should I have to contact them to see if they are working as surely they should be reporting to the owners that a) worked but b) didn't and we need to refine it.

You seem to be defensive for the sake of it when you don't have all the facts either. I have asked you if you think membership is working but you fail to answer because to do so would then be seen as being critical of the establishment.

I work with teams in Holland and they decide something and get it done, they don't have all this - cant do this, cant do that PC stuff. Put something in place and then go for it. That's what we should be doing and my main criticism is that to me and other outsiders then it seems everyone has to take things to the board when it should be the board taking it to the customers and potential customers.

Rather than be completely defensive then open your mind to the possibilities of making thing happen. There is some great work done by media team and others but we need to see it right across the board.
How odd. You quoted my post but your reply seems to bear no relation to what I actually said.

There doesn't seem to be much point in wasting energy debating this further, since you clearly feel the best way of getting things done is to not approach or be part of the group tasked by the supporters/owners with getting things done. Good luck!
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Old 16th May 2018, 13.08:31   #123-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some facts - not false news.

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Originally Posted by Todd Sweeney View Post
How odd. You quoted my post but your reply seems to bear no relation to what I actually said.

There doesn't seem to be much point in wasting energy debating this further, since you clearly feel the best way of getting things done is to not approach or be part of the group tasked by the supporters/owners with getting things done. Good luck!

I believe PAGL already works with the club on BTB.
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Old 16th May 2018, 13.10:40   #124-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some facts - not false news.

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Originally Posted by WrexhamO View Post
I believe PAGL already works with the club on BTB.
As the club was very happy to take this on and work with him on it, I'm therefore flummoxed by some of his posts on this thread. They are clearly keen to listen to ideas from supporters, and that is a shining example.
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Old 16th May 2018, 13.21:02   #125-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some facts - not false news.

Some people here approve of the Trust, and others don't. It's like everything else on the planet, be that the weather, politics, or the price of fish.

However...

There are some on here who's opinions about matters are expressed in a cynical and unwarranted manner. That applies in particular to those who argue against the Trust. Note, ARGUE, not express an opinion.

I doubt that many sane individuals who enjoy peaceful evenings at home after a hard day's work would willingly volunteer to be verbally abused by those who think they do a poor job but who aren't prepared to explain just how they would go about producing the better results that they are looking for.

That's not a "put up or shut up" request. Ideas are welcome, but shooting people down with little or no knowledge of what they do in their capacities in the Trust is a route to putting people off from volunteering their ideas or services. It smacks of the playground bully - the ignorant one that had plenty to say until his victim clacked him one. As has been said, ideas are welcome, and so is criticism where the problem can be identified and an alternative put forward. That applies equally to personalities as it does to plans that fail to provide their objectives.

Debate is fair enough, and RP is well known for providing it in spades. No-one is saying that debate shouldn't continue, but let's not put some people off the idea of making positive contributions for the (justifiable) fear that they will meet with criticism as soon as anything fails to meet a few fans' unqualified and possibly impossible expectations.
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Old 16th May 2018, 13.45:35   #126-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some facts - not false news.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Sweeney View Post
How odd. You quoted my post but your reply seems to bear no relation to what I actually said.

There doesn't seem to be much point in wasting energy debating this further, since you clearly feel the best way of getting things done is to not approach or be part of the group tasked by the supporters/owners with getting things done. Good luck!
Really! I had some opinions on which you either disagreed or didn't have the answers so all I was asking was that you made a statement about me being wrong and therefore what this was based on. I used the membership as an example but again you had no opinion or facts on whether it was working or not!

I am happy to debate the point, just as I have said I have put forward ideas or suggestions and BTB aside nothing has materialised. So again I asked you why people didn't volunteer - is there a general feeling that these views are not really heard. Would be interested in your opinion.

I am really too long in the tooth now to push and push to be part of a group and as I have said I think the WST probably has enough experts in these areas to make plans to achieve aims and goals. If they are not achieved then what can I do or Eosceiriog, Bagger or any of the other voices of reason (as I see them).

As I also said what skills etc. do any of the groups need to achieve some of their aims - I haven't heard anything, have you?

If I go back to my main points - WST should be strategic and planning and WAFC operations then we can see that clear boundaries can be defined and clear aims and goals set and achieved by both parties without impinging on the other.

Your stance is to repeat the same mantra in that the only way to achieve change is that everyone that has an opinion/idea then has to stand for election and be part of some committee - well a lot of fans with great ideas don't have the time or the inclination so do we just ignore them.

Again I point to membership - so what are your views on the growth of membership by the WST, is it working, can it be improved and what do we aim for and measure as success.

Come on stop with this three line whip stuff and provide some feedback
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Old 16th May 2018, 13.59:10   #127-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some facts - not false news.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pagl View Post
Really! I had some opinions on which you either disagreed or didn't have the answers so all I was asking was that you made a statement about me being wrong and therefore what this was based on. I used the membership as an example but again you had no opinion or facts on whether it was working or not!

I am happy to debate the point, just as I have said I have put forward ideas or suggestions and BTB aside nothing has materialised. So again I asked you why people didn't volunteer - is there a general feeling that these views are not really heard. Would be interested in your opinion.

I am really too long in the tooth now to push and push to be part of a group and as I have said I think the WST probably has enough experts in these areas to make plans to achieve aims and goals. If they are not achieved then what can I do or Eosceiriog, Bagger or any of the other voices of reason (as I see them).

As I also said what skills etc. do any of the groups need to achieve some of their aims - I haven't heard anything, have you?

If I go back to my main points - WST should be strategic and planning and WAFC operations then we can see that clear boundaries can be defined and clear aims and goals set and achieved by both parties without impinging on the other.

Your stance is to repeat the same mantra in that the only way to achieve change is that everyone that has an opinion/idea then has to stand for election and be part of some committee - well a lot of fans with great ideas don't have the time or the inclination so do we just ignore them.

Again I point to membership - so what are your views on the growth of membership by the WST, is it working, can it be improved and what do we aim for and measure as success.

Come on stop with this three line whip stuff and provide some feedback
My feedback is that to get things done you need to either be part of, or give your ideas to, the people tasked with getting things done.

If I have an issue I want to raise with my local MP, I write to them. I don't expect them to acknowledge or act on the issue if I write to my local paper instead.

If you think that is negative, or not expressing an opinion, then fair enough!

As for my views. I'd like to see tens of thousands of people join the WST as members. But I don't know if that is realistic; I don't know how much time, money, resources or effort it would take to achieve that, and whether it should be a priority over other things given the finite amount of time, money, resources and effort that the WST board have. Basically I'd just be guessing.

If I wanted to know, or to change the board's direction on this, I'd probably approach them about it or stand for election. We're all on the same side...
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Old 16th May 2018, 20.39:04   #128-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some facts - not false news.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Only Way Is Up View Post
Some people here approve of the Trust, and others don't. It's like everything else on the planet, be that the weather, politics, or the price of fish.

However...

There are some on here who's opinions about matters are expressed in a cynical and unwarranted manner. That applies in particular to those who argue against the Trust. Note, ARGUE, not express an opinion.

I doubt that many sane individuals who enjoy peaceful evenings at home after a hard day's work would willingly volunteer to be verbally abused by those who think they do a poor job but who aren't prepared to explain just how they would go about producing the better results that they are looking for.

That's not a "put up or shut up" request. Ideas are welcome, but shooting people down with little or no knowledge of what they do in their capacities in the Trust is a route to putting people off from volunteering their ideas or services. It smacks of the playground bully - the ignorant one that had plenty to say until his victim clacked him one. As has been said, ideas are welcome, and so is criticism where the problem can be identified and an alternative put forward. That applies equally to personalities as it does to plans that fail to provide their objectives.

Debate is fair enough, and RP is well known for providing it in spades. No-one is saying that debate shouldn't continue, but let's not put some people off the idea of making positive contributions for the (justifiable) fear that they will meet with criticism as soon as anything fails to meet a few fans' unqualified and possibly impossible expectations.
Well said
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