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Old 12th June 2018, 19.58:09   #181-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: Its all about money and we've got enough.

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Originally Posted by Bagger Vance View Post
Stockport County went pearshaoed during fan ownership
Notts County Trust gave 93% of the club away to avoid admin
Chesterfield and York Trusts have up ownership
Chester just escaped going pear shaped
Portsmouth sold out of fan ownership

The Fan owned model has not been untroubled, but neither has private, its not the model that generally caused the problems, its the decisions made by the people running the clubs irrespective of what structure sits behind them keeping them on the throne of responsibility or its been unable to successfully trade out of parlous financial burdens.

Wimbledon is a good example of solid management and a structure that allows for quick capital raising. Whether they were private or fan owned you get the feeling they would be successful because they are well run.

People get hung up on fan or not fan but when you boil it all down its just business and that's done well and badly in pretty equal measure in football under all ownership structures.
I mentioned these failings elsewhere. Just because the above haven't entered administration doesn't mean they haven't become a complete mess.
How many fans owned clubs have failed ? Id say the % is pretty high. Certainly higher than the alternative.
Successes include Wimbledon and Pompey. Both have quickly involved outside investment and have given up big shares of ownership.
Failures include Telford/Chester/Stockport

Its true that bad management will lead to failure no matter what the model.
Good management is more than just spending within a budget though. Its making investments that will lead to greater income. Besides begging people to hand over more cash I can't see any investments. Youth team being one example of a potential way of earning good money (not just covering costs). A good scouting network is another. Haven't seen any thoughts on scouting for years.
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Old 12th June 2018, 20.05:07   #182-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: Its all about money and we've got enough.

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Originally Posted by REDJB View Post
I mentioned these failings elsewhere. Just because the above haven't entered administration doesn't mean they haven't become a complete mess.
How many fans owned clubs have failed ? Id say the % is pretty high. Certainly higher than the alternative.
Successes include Wimbledon and Pompey. Both have quickly involved outside investment and have given up big shares of ownership.
Failures include Telford/Chester/Stockport

Its true that bad management will lead to failure no matter what the modelu.
Good management is more than just spending within a budget though. Its making investments that will lead to greater income. Besides begging people to hand over more cash I can't see any investments. Youth team being one example of a potential way of earning good money (not just covering costs). A good scouting network is another. Haven't seen any thoughts on scouting for years.
I think the evidence is pretty overwhelming - fans owned clubs generally haven’t worked. Some exceptions, but that’s through extraordinary business or football management. The club board and owners, if they are genuine fans, need to face up to this reality and take a lead in advocating another route. Most fans will follow them and who knows what is out there.
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Old 12th June 2018, 20.25:51   #183-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: Its all about money and we've got enough.

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Bagger nice to see some much needed common sense!

Not every private investor is a Hamilton just like not every fan can manage a football club.

For me though i think too many people who have involvement with the club now will always back the current model as without it they know nobody will care.

If the council and welsh assembly backed the club with a public announcement that the ground cannot and will not ever be allowed to be anything other than a sporting venue and the club went partially or totally up for-sale ... would you be willing to listen to offers of investment or selling then aslong as they could prove the finance to move the club forward?
I advocated a long time ago creating a 2nd tranche of shares (around 25%) of 1 share 1 vote class b’s similar to Wimbledon. This group get a board place. It would create a new capital injection, offer a future route for more capital raising, offer oversight and checks and balance by duality while keeping a fan owned majority for whatever term is necessary.
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Old 12th June 2018, 20.32:55   #184-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: Its all about money and we've got enough.

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Originally Posted by Bagger Vance View Post
I advocated a long time ago creating a 2nd tranche of shares (around 25%) of 1 share 1 vote class b’s similar to Wimbledon. This group get a board place. It would create a new capital injection, offer a future route for more capital raising, offer oversight and checks and balance by duality while keeping a fan owned majority for whatever term is necessary.
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Old 12th June 2018, 21.05:13   #185-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: Its all about money and we've got enough.

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Originally Posted by Bagger Vance View Post
I advocated a long time ago creating a 2nd tranche of shares (around 25%) of 1 share 1 vote class b’s similar to Wimbledon. This group get a board place. It would create a new capital injection, offer a future route for more capital raising, offer oversight and checks and balance by duality while keeping a fan owned majority for whatever term is necessary.
So what would the price per share be?
25% of what figure and therefore how many shares?
What would be the maximum %age 1 person could buy?
Which board would the group get a place on as 25% would seem a big number depending on how many shares?
I assume this would be a non-working board and the WST elected board would still continue?
I assume the shares would pay a dividend like any other share and the assumption would be that as fans we would donate it back to the club?

Personally I think the WAFC operational board needs to have the capital injection - in some way. However your suggestion would seem to address an immediate need for cash, however if used directly on the first team budget and once spent then its gone. I would therefore assume the capital would be used strategically and that is something the WST are currently struggling with.

I think the idea definitely has legs if presented the right way and it didn't go down the community share route which is now totally fked.
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Old 12th June 2018, 21.26:01   #186-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: Its all about money and we've got enough.

What if we could have a share issue to raise capital, that after promotion to league football, you could offer thenm back for sale to the club? Obviously not straight away and cash flow permitting....the only problem I see is when that money is gone it's most likely gone. Not all of our supporters could afford a cash lump sum every 5 years or so...

What if we could raise the cash to buy/pay up the lease on the racecourse? That way it immediately releases an extra £100k to the budget. Each shareholder then at least has a share of something worthwhile and not just a lump of cash that could be fritter away on players?

But then how did Macc do it on their budget?? Is it all about the right manager, the correct blend of players and a bit of luck?

Last edited by jonesfach; 12th June 2018 at 21.30:50..
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Old 12th June 2018, 21.45:17   #187-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: Its all about money and we've got enough.

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Originally Posted by jonesfach View Post
What if we could have a share issue to raise capital, that after promotion to league football, you could offer thenm back for sale to the club? Obviously not straight away and cash flow permitting....the only problem I see is when that money is gone it's most likely gone. Not all of our supporters could afford a cash lump sum every 5 years or so...

What if we could raise the cash to buy/pay up the lease on the racecourse? That way it immediately releases an extra £100k to the budget. Each shareholder then at least has a share of something worthwhile and not just a lump of cash that could be fritter away on players?

But then how did Macc do it on their budget?? Is it all about the right manager, the correct blend of players and a bit of luck?
We are wrexham fans ... luck doesn’t happen here!
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Old 12th June 2018, 21.48:30   #188-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: Its all about money and we've got enough.

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Originally Posted by Foxy View Post
I think the evidence is pretty overwhelming - fans owned clubs generally haven’t worked. Some exceptions, but that’s through extraordinary business or football management. The club board and owners, if they are genuine fans, need to face up to this reality and take a lead in advocating another route. Most fans will follow them and who knows what is out there.
It’s been 7 years and some people think it’s still going to suddenly work.
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Old 12th June 2018, 21.54:16   #189-0 (permalink)
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Default Re: Its all about money and we've got enough.

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Originally Posted by crazywelsh View Post
It’s been 7 years and some people think it’s still going to suddenly work.
It can work......but could it be easier is the question? Of course investment will help make it easier. Have we got to that point yet? If not I think most will admit we need to start looking at some extra investment.

I think we all know what a mess Moss and Robberts left us in and how the road to balancing the books was the first objective. That is looking pretty reasonable so perhaps it's time to start looking at extra investment to get out of this league. With trying to compete with sugar daddy money it makes it extremely hard to get promotion.
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