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-   -   Massive change needed. (http://www.redpassion.co.uk/forums/wrexham/113889-massive-change-needed.html)

John Neals Dynasty 3rd May 2019 13.57:37

Massive change needed.
 
This is not going to be a popular thread I accept that.

But who thinks we need an outside not connected to the club investigation into the club from top to bottom particularly at the Top table who are responsible for the state of this long gone great club on the footballing side of the fence?

Do heads need to roll on the board?
Do heads need to roll on the coaching side including the out of his depth manager?

Or who thinks everything is Hunky Dory at the club and just needs some small changes?

My personal view is something is very wrong in the ever increasing secret corridors of power.

I think the club needs major surgery right from the ground up, if change is not made then this club will never go up and our loyal fanbase are at breaking point.

Rumour is some American consortium (i don't know if true or just rumour) are looking to take over Yeovil.

Big question with this club being a sleeping medium giant and a supported club that outshines clubs far higher in the football pyramid nobody is interested in us, I expect the usual we have nothing worth investing in by the scared of private ownership because of past crooks, be we have to learn from what was mistakes by the club then as regards to these owners. Or accept the club will never go forward of the field a bit like the team.
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Foxy 3rd May 2019 14.03:43

Re: Massive change needed.
 
The debate is now over . It’s a no brainer at this point...

‘Fans’ ownership hasn’t worked . FACT

John Neals Dynasty 3rd May 2019 14.07:40

[QUOTE=Foxy;2254284]The debate is now over . It’s a no brainier at this point...

‘Fans’ ownership hasn’t worked . FACT[/QUOTE]


You know that I know that and an increasing amount of others with eyes open to, but I would be interested to hear others honest views.
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benwilliams 3rd May 2019 14.47:12

Re: Massive change needed.
 
[QUOTE=Foxy;2254284]The debate is now over . It’s a no brainer at this point...

‘Fans’ ownership hasn’t worked . FACT[/QUOTE]

Say for sake of argument I agree, what are the alternatives? Where are the rich backers queuing up to buy us? And dont give me the "we havent put ourselves up for sale" argument as if someone genuinely wanted to buy/invest why wouldn't they approach the board and if the board unreasonably turn them down they can then go to local press and show the board up as unreasonable?

I just don't buy that there is a queue of potential owners of the non dodgy property developer variety that would invest if only they were asked.

willyheckerslike 3rd May 2019 14.50:41

Re: Massive change needed.
 
Managed but critical change is required if we have any hope of getting back were we belong. We need new outside investment and a professional board of directors with a representative from the WST. The days of "hobby" board members must be over......we also need to cut our losses with Hughes and his management team....new investors will demand this anyway as they wont be prepared to accept a rookie and wont give him the time to cut his teeth in any event.

krux 3rd May 2019 14.55:02

[QUOTE=benwilliams;2254308]Say for sake of argument I agree, what are the alternatives? Where are the rich backers queuing up to buy us? And dont give me the "we havent put ourselves up for sale" argument as if someone genuinely wanted to buy/invest why wouldn't they approach the board and if the board unreasonably turn them down they can then go to local press and show the board up as unreasonable?

I just don't buy that there is a queue of potential owners of the non dodgy property developer variety that would invest if only they were asked.[/QUOTE]


This is the problem mindset. We need to be welcoming to investors, not saying that if they want to invest they will jump through the hoops.

We need to make it clear ad explicit that we welcome investment and are willing to change our model.
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wxmultra 3rd May 2019 15.02:28

Re: Massive change needed.
 
Any truth in the Wrexham Fans FB page rumour that Spencer has walked away?

Prodigal Dragon 3rd May 2019 15.04:09

Re: Massive change needed.
 
We need change but whether that means reducing the WST's involvement is not credible whilst they/us are the sole owner of Wrexham AFC.

Probably best to let the dust settle for a few weeks before a review begins. If there is one, who should do it?

BH has flunked his first season, but is it due to:

His lack of experience and inability;

Lack of resources, which resulted in a squad with lots of effort but little ability;

Or a combination of both.

In BH's defence, the expectations from Wrexham fans are far higher than most clubs at this level. Are our expectations too high? Should we lower them?

Personally, my requirement is to be entertained and promoted back into the FL. I think that is the Board's aim, too; unfortunately, for whatever reason, they seem unable to deliver.

Teifi Red 3rd May 2019 15.07:25

Re: Massive change needed.
 
Hypothetical question.
I am a businessman who is looking to invest in a football club. I can pump a few £million in every year. I don’t have any history/affinity to any club.
Being a businessman, what would I get for my investment of, let’s say £4 million in Wrexham AFC?

René Higuita 3rd May 2019 15.11:35

Re: Massive change needed.
 
[QUOTE=Teifi Red;2254322]Hypothetical question.
I am a businessman who is looking to invest in a football club. I can pump a few £million in every year. I don’t have any history/affinity to any club.
Being a businessman, what would I get for my investment of, let’s say £4 million in Wrexham AFC?[/QUOTE]

we have much more to invest in than clubs like fylde. so why not?

subbuteorob 3rd May 2019 15.13:49

Re: Massive change needed.
 
I am generally a supporter of fan ownership but feel that huge mistakes have been made by the football board. There seems to be no rhyme nor reason to some of those decisions. I can see no progress being made on the pitch with glaringly obvious issues not being addressed. Almost seems to be a board intent on self harm. Things just don't seem to stack up for me and haven't done for a while. If we need to revise our expectations then I would rather hear it like it is without spin then maybe we could all make an informed decision about the future of the club.

Teifi Red 3rd May 2019 15.20:13

Re: Massive change needed.
 
[QUOTE=René Higuita;2254325]we have much more to invest in than clubs like fylde. so why not?[/QUOTE]

Enlighten me. Where can I get a return on my investment.

Colonel D 3rd May 2019 15.24:18

Re: Massive change needed.
 
[QUOTE=Teifi Red;2254322]Hypothetical question.
I am a businessman who is looking to invest in a football club. I can pump a few £million in every year. I don’t have any history/affinity to any club.
Being a businessman, what would I get for my investment of, let’s say £4 million in Wrexham AFC?[/QUOTE]

Grief !

krux 3rd May 2019 15.33:39

[QUOTE=Teifi Red;2254322]Hypothetical question.
I am a businessman who is looking to invest in a football club. I can pump a few £million in every year. I don’t have any history/affinity to any club.
Being a businessman, what would I get for my investment of, let’s say £4 million in Wrexham AFC?[/QUOTE]

The same thing that the investors in other clubs get.
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krux 3rd May 2019 15.34:38

[QUOTE=Teifi Red;2254331]Enlighten me. Where can I get a return on my investment.[/QUOTE]

The same return on investment that the Fylde investor gets.
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Phils-an-alki 3rd May 2019 15.35:19

Re: Massive change needed.
 
[QUOTE=Teifi Red;2254331]Enlighten me. Where can I get a return on my investment.[/QUOTE]

You won't. Not short term anyway.

But how come clubs like Fylde, Eastleigh, Fleetwood, Crawley, Forest Green, Salford etc etc have backers?

Loads on here said Fleetwood would go pop. Still going strong in League one.

It works both ways, you're asking people to explain whats in it for them, which is fair enough but there are many examples of people who do buy clubs and I guess do it because they love football and want to be involved.

The issue with us is that we've been shafted twice and its left fans uber paranoid even years later.

The difference now is that we or the WST are in total control. Don't like an investor? Then tell them to do one. It would be on our terms, we hold all the cards now. This isn't like before where the fans were on the outside looking in with no real control, everything is in the hands of the WST.

Inside Left 3rd May 2019 15.42:47

Re: Massive change needed.
 
[QUOTE=John Neals Dynasty;2254280]This is not going to be a popular thread I accept that.

But who thinks we need an outside not connected to the club investigation into the club from top to bottom particularly at the Top table who are responsible for the state of this long gone great club on the footballing side of the fence?

Do heads need to roll on the board?
Do heads need to roll on the coaching side including the out of his depth manager?

Or who thinks everything is Hunky Dory at the club and just needs some small changes?

My personal view is something is very wrong in the ever increasing secret corridors of power.

I think the club needs major surgery right from the ground up, if change is not made then this club will never go up and our loyal fanbase are at breaking point.

Rumour is some American consortium (i don't know if true or just rumour) are looking to take over Yeovil.

Big question with this club being a sleeping medium giant and a supported club that outshines clubs far higher in the football pyramid nobody is interested in us, I expect the usual we have nothing worth investing in by the scared of private ownership because of past crooks, be we have to learn from what was mistakes by the club then as regards to these owners. Or accept the club will never go forward of the field a bit like the team.
[size=1][i]Posted via mobile theme[/i][/size][/QUOTE]

IF me and some of my business friends were invited to invest in the club what would you as fans expect from us and what would we get for our investment ? how would the share structure give us our security and power?

Sorry best ignore as I see someone else has made a similar comment.

ABd 3rd May 2019 15.42:53

Re: Massive change needed.
 
I wonder what's in it for Leyton Orient's investor, as we wave them off to the sunlit uplands of League 2...

Inside Left 3rd May 2019 15.45:49

Re: Massive change needed.
 
[QUOTE=krux;2254338]The same thing that the investors in other clubs get.
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Fylde investment is very much real estate based.

Inside Left 3rd May 2019 15.47:17

Re: Massive change needed.
 
[QUOTE=krux;2254338]The same thing that the investors in other clubs get.
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......and what do they get? any examples.

Teifi Red 3rd May 2019 15.50:37

Re: Massive change needed.
 
I’m playing devil’s advocate here. Loads of people saying we should sell but no one can give an answer to the question. All i’m getting is that other clubs have investors and they manage but no answer to the situation involving Wrexham.
Fleetwood bloke has integrated his business into the ground, some investors are tax dodgers. Forest Green have built the club as part of a green project.
But what is there at Wrexham?
Sorry, but spouting off about selling to an investor without knowing what it could involve seems a bit backward.
I’d love a sugar daddy to come on board but it ain’t happening as we are not a good investment.
Please persuade me differently with valid arguments.

Phils-an-alki 3rd May 2019 15.51:50

Re: Massive change needed.
 
[QUOTE=Inside Left;2254348]......and what do they get? any examples.[/QUOTE]

Why do loads of other clubs have private owners then?
Practically every club is not fan owned and the majority are doing just fine. How do they do it?

Vorporix 3rd May 2019 15.55:21

Re: Massive change needed.
 
[QUOTE=Teifi Red;2254352]I’m playing devil’s advocate here. Loads of people saying we should sell but no one can give an answer to the question. All i’m getting is that other clubs have investors and they manage but no answer to the situation involving Wrexham.
Fleetwood bloke has integrated his business into the ground, some investors are tax dodgers. Forest Green have built the club as part of a green project.
But what is there at Wrexham?
Sorry, but spouting off about selling to an investor without knowing what it could involve seems a bit backward.
I’d love a sugar daddy to come on board but it ain’t happening as we are not a good investment.
Please persuade me differently with valid arguments.[/QUOTE]

Good post - I honestly wish there was a mega-rich Wrexham supporter who would like to invest in the club and I would be more than happy to change the model.

In all probability if we did stick an advert out there we would get little response.

I would love to be proven wrong.

Funny_Old_Game 3rd May 2019 15.57:45

[QUOTE=Teifi Red;2254322]Hypothetical question.
I am a businessman who is looking to invest in a football club. I can pump a few £million in every year. I don’t have any history/affinity to any club.
Being a businessman, what would I get for my investment of, let’s say £4 million in Wrexham AFC?[/QUOTE]

You’d be run out of town by the paranoid mob before you could even state your intentions.

Phils-an-alki 3rd May 2019 16.00:46

Re: Massive change needed.
 
[QUOTE=Teifi Red;2254352]I’m playing devil’s advocate here. Loads of people saying we should sell but no one can give an answer to the question. All i’m getting is that other clubs have investors and they manage but no answer to the situation involving Wrexham.
Fleetwood bloke has integrated his business into the ground, some investors are tax dodgers. Forest Green have built the club as part of a green project.
But what is there at Wrexham?
Sorry, but spouting off about selling to an investor without knowing what it could involve seems a bit backward.
I’d love a sugar daddy to come on board but it ain’t happening as we are not a good investment.
Please persuade me differently with valid arguments.[/QUOTE]

Fan ownership is the exception here not the rule and its not working for us.

You're trying to belittle other clubs by suggesting tax dodging etc, have you any evidence of that?

I'm not going to try and persuade you because it pointless.
My previous response to you poses enough questions and points for you.

If the attitudes are like this from those at the top table then its no surprise we're going nowhere. Narrow minded and totally closed off because the club was shafted nearly ten years ago. Time to move on and get over it. This paranoia is ridiculous.

Red Light 3rd May 2019 16.02:00

Re: Massive change needed.
 
[QUOTE=Foxy;2254284]The debate is now over . It’s a no brainer at this point...

‘Fans’ ownership hasn’t worked . FACT[/QUOTE]

And then there was Bolton Wanderers ........worth reflecting on.

However with another big attendance last night of 6,723 and all the associated financial spin offs does anyone else wonder where exactly does all the money go ?

Phils-an-alki 3rd May 2019 16.03:20

Re: Massive change needed.
 
[QUOTE=Funny_Old_Game;2254358]You’d be run out of town by the paranoid mob before you could even state your intentions.[/QUOTE]

Apparently its already happened. Even someone like Bryn Law couldn't get dialogue going. That speaks volumes.

krux 3rd May 2019 16.06:12

[QUOTE=Inside Left;2254348]......and what do they get? any examples.[/QUOTE]

They don't do it for a financial return though, do they?? that is obvious, unless it is linked ia to their business like fgr.

Either one is fine wth me
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Teifi Red 3rd May 2019 16.09:46

Re: Massive change needed.
 
[QUOTE=Phils-an-alki;2254361]Fan ownership is the exception here not the rule and its not working for us.

You're trying to belittle other clubs by suggesting tax dodging etc, have you any evidence of that?

I'm not going to try and persuade you because it pointless.
My previous response to you poses enough questions and points for you.

If the attitudes are like this from those at the top table then its no surprise we're going nowhere. Narrow minded and totally closed off because the club was shafted nearly ten years ago. Time to move on and get over it. This paranoia is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]

HMRC were looking at 44 football clubs over tax avoidance at the end of last year.
Convince me that Wrexham would be a good investment.

Phils-an-alki 3rd May 2019 16.17:39

Re: Massive change needed.
 
[QUOTE=Teifi Red;2254369]HMRC were looking at 44 football clubs over tax avoidance at the end of last year.
Convince me that Wrexham would be a good investment.[/QUOTE]

Like I said, there's no point. My other post says what I think. You'll never change your view and that's despite continuous failure on the pitch since the WST got control. If that doesn't open your mind nothing will. I'd then ask why you are so forgiving and accepting of failure.

Your argument falls down because you can't tell me why nearly every successful club is privately owned.

benwilliams 3rd May 2019 16.20:23

Re: Massive change needed.
 
I actually hope we do put out an advert as I've posted before. It will be win win for me as someone who is generally pro fan ownership but not ideologically wedded to the model. An advert would either flush out a good new owner (doubt it but great if intentions were demonstrably positive) or prove to fans that there is no alternative so we need to work within what we've got but there are of course lessons we can and should learn.

I would sign a petition to Spencer to explore it if others would?

Vorporix 3rd May 2019 16.21:26

Re: Massive change needed.
 
I have no problem with private ownership - where can we start the queue?

krux 3rd May 2019 16.23:36

[QUOTE=Vorporix;2254373]I have no problem with private ownership - where can we start the queue?[/QUOTE]

Put out the invitation and lets see!
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benwilliams 3rd May 2019 16.23:53

Re: Massive change needed.
 
I really think this is a good time for those on here who have legitimate gripes with the ownership to engage constructively with those who are somewhat in the middle like me and suggest positive tangible ways to push for answers/change.

I get a messageboard is the place to complain and that's fine but this season has been constant sniping with no solutions suggested. I actually agree with the bulk of points Phil, FOG, Dixie and pagl make but the way they're expressed is disengaging to me and is usually couched in "post to shock" language.

There is absolutely a legitimate debate to be had about where we are and how we move forward together positively and I'd welcome more dialogue on that.

Phils-an-alki 3rd May 2019 16.26:16

Re: Massive change needed.
 
[QUOTE=benwilliams;2254372]I actually hope we do put out an advert as I've posted before. It will be win win for me as someone who is generally pro fan ownership but not ideologically wedded to the model. An advert would either flush out a good new owner (doubt it but great if intentions were demonstrably positive) or prove to fans that there is no alternative so we need to work within what we've got but there are of course lessons we can and should learn.

I would sign a petition to Spencer to explore it if others would?[/QUOTE]

Too simplistic. The WST and both boards would have to be open to it and I don't think they are. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas, as in they've no interest in relinquishing control which is why I've said they place their own positions above everything else. Even Bryn Law wasn't trusted. What hope has anyone got?

John Neals Dynasty 3rd May 2019 16.28:27

[QUOTE=Teifi Red;2254322]Hypothetical question.
I am a businessman who is looking to invest in a football club. I can pump a few £million in every year. I don’t have any history/affinity to any club.
Being a businessman, what would I get for my investment of, let’s say £4 million in Wrexham AFC?[/QUOTE]

The same as the American with Salford,the owner of Fylde who is a Blackpool fan, the owners of numerous clubs throughout the football league etc
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Inside Left 3rd May 2019 16.29:13

Re: Massive change needed.
 
[QUOTE=Phils-an-alki;2254353]Why do loads of other clubs have private owners then?
Practically every club is not fan owned and the majority are doing just fine. How do they do it?[/QUOTE]

My question was not answered -- but I can help with my version....

Most owners buy a majority ownership in a club in order to grow it and then sell at a profit. Or cream off some asset and then sell.

Inside Left 3rd May 2019 16.33:57

Re: Massive change needed.
 
[QUOTE=krux;2254339]The same return on investment that the Fylde investor gets.
[size=1][i]Posted via mobile theme[/i][/size][/QUOTE]

The Fylde owner has the freehold of the club site and surrounding development. the trust members at Wrexham have ownership of a long 'lease' but the general membership of the trust have no idea what the terms of the 'lease' are. Such detail is only in the hands of a few - I assume WST board and club board plus legal advisors.

Teifi Red 3rd May 2019 16.34:32

Re: Massive change needed.
 
[QUOTE=Phils-an-alki;2254371]Like I said, there's no point. My other post says what I think. You'll never change your view and that's despite continuous failure on the pitch since the WST got control. If that doesn't open your mind nothing will. I'd then ask why you are so forgiving and accepting of failure.

Your argument falls down because you can't tell me why nearly every successful club is privately owned.[/QUOTE]

The successful ones either have a brand name behind them known world wide - Liverpool, Man Utd. etc or have a business model as part of the Club - FGR or Fleetwood for example. Barcelona is a fan owned model but again the brand name makes it work.
Several owners have made loans to clubs. They then call in the loans or try and sell the debt/club on. Cardiff being an example.
Read my posts - I’m open to investors and would welcome them. But, you can’t give me one argument as to why Wrexham is a good investment.
The reality is, people hope a knight in shining armour to give millions to the club out of nothing more than a love of the club and don’t want anything in return.

John Neals Dynasty 3rd May 2019 16.35:14

[QUOTE=Teifi Red;2254369]HMRC were looking at 44 football clubs over tax avoidance at the end of last year.
Convince me that Wrexham would be a good investment.[/QUOTE]

Turning the question around what return on investment are the present owners getting?
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