Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

So now even our club captain is coming out and talking about "real change" happening at the club.
I think SP is correct in prioritising survival then change, and I personally doubt that another change of manager at this stage would benefit us or the players (albeit I was not happy with Keates re-appointment and is another example of a lazy recruitment process by the board).

I get bored and frustrated when every thread turns into an everything is shit thread (regardless of the OP) with very little proposed as a replacement/alternative. It feels to me like the footballing equivalent of Brexit. We all know what we don't want , but I have seen nothing to suggest any idea of how to get what we do want.

So assuming that the aim would be to replace the current board and structure this summer, what ideas do people have to fill the void left if the board resign/get sacked or whatever ?


We know some are looking to the sugar daddy solution. Are there any realistic options for this in the pipeline ? What safeguards could we put in place to ensure we don't go back to the dark days of 10 years ago ?


There is a lot of flack for fan based ownership on here but there are places where it has worked, AFC Wimbledon and Wycombe Wanderers both in league one spring to mind, so when done properly it seems that fan owned clubs can work. Would we be able to shadow or study the structure of these well run clubs to find out what they are doing well that we aren't.

Just as importantly who would be willing to step in and replace the board if/when they went ?

I'll admit I have far more questions than answers, but what do we have collectively as alternatives ?

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

Darlington leaving is the most obvious, drastic and realistic change we can make by this point. His tenure has no been a success and he needs to leave, we need a new coach with fresh ideas.

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=KingBuxton_Forever red;2334303]Darlington leaving is the most obvious, drastic and realistic change we can make by this point. His tenure has no been a success and he needs to leave, we need a new coach with fresh ideas.[/QUOTE]

That's what is so frustrating, if we'd have gone for a fresh start and got rid of Darlington and not brought back Keates and Davies the fans wouldn't be so divided, the animosity wouldn't be as intense and we could have salvaged our season, 18 games after Hughes' sacking we're still exactly where we were in the league and even bigger rifts between the fans and the club, the players and the management and the board and the owners

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=northwalian dragon;2334307]That's what is so frustrating, if we'd have gone for a fresh start and got rid of Darlington and not brought back Keates and Davies the fans wouldn't be so divided, the animosity wouldn't be as intense and we could have salvaged our season, 18 games after Hughes' sacking we're still exactly where we were in the league and even bigger rifts between the fans and the club, the players and the management and the board and the owners[/QUOTE]

Yeah but Keates has a better PPG than Hughes had so we must be 'progressing'...

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=Phils-an-alki;2334312]Yeah but Keates has a better PPG than Hughes had so we must be 'progressing'...[/QUOTE]

another rib gone.

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=moynkeepthefaith;2334327]another rib gone.[/QUOTE]

It was probably sick of your constant clapping.

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

think realistic changes at the moment would probably be new halftime music, different flavour of pie and possibly spraying old seats red (although that’s very unlikely)

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=northwalian dragon;2334307]That's what is so frustrating, if we'd have gone for a fresh start and got rid of Darlington and not brought back Keates and Davies the fans wouldn't be so divided, the animosity wouldn't be as intense and we could have salvaged our season, 18 games after Hughes' sacking we're still exactly where we were in the league and even bigger rifts between the fans and the club, the players and the management and the board and the owners[/QUOTE]

If we had brought in Keates and Davies, bombed off Darlington but brought in another coach that might have even helped.

Obviously you wont agree because Keates ran over your cat or something :jester:

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=basdragon;2334291]

I get bored and frustrated when every thread turns into an everything is shit thread (regardless of the OP) with very little proposed as a replacement/alternative. It feels to me like the footballing equivalent of Brexit. We all know what we don't want , but I have seen nothing to suggest any idea of how to get what we do want. /QUOTE]

Any reason you couldn't just post this under the thread already started about this :huh2:

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

Fan owned is fine.

The board structure is wrong, and the people on it are grossly incompetent.

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

A paid CEO too take real day to day charge and responsibility would be best imho.

Responsibility is spread 5 ways, with 5 different line managers. We need one person in charge.

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=-luke;2334396]Fan owned is fine.

The board structure is wrong, and the people on it are grossly incompetent.[/QUOTE]

Yup.

Don't get me wrong fan ownership is looking awful at the moment, however with compent management from the top it could be so much more successful..

Now I'm not comparing WST to communism, but as an analagy you could say that communism is a great ideal in theory; unfortunately human nature will never allow it to work.

Clinging to fan ownership run badly will never bring success, just as private ownership run badly will not.

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

Part time, playing at Queensway in Division 6 are 3 relatively realistic changes that are on the way...

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=andy buckley;2334373][QUOTE=basdragon;2334291]

I get bored and frustrated when every thread turns into an everything is shit thread (regardless of the OP) with very little proposed as a replacement/alternative. It feels to me like the footballing equivalent of Brexit. We all know what we don't want , but I have seen nothing to suggest any idea of how to get what we do want. /QUOTE]

Any reason you couldn't just post this under the thread already started about this :huh2:[/QUOTE]

Because I have seen nothing to suggest any idea of how to get what we do want on any other thread.

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

Very obviously we need changes to the playing squad and coaching set up. Those are short term changes that need to be made.

It appears to me that there is something very wrong with the governance of the club. I don't know enough about the make up of the various boards to have a clue what the issues are, whether it's personalities, or the organisation, or both. But people more clued up than me have been mentioning them for a while now. Mistakes have quite clearly been made over the last 18 months (managerial appointments being one, the dealings with the DSA another) but what's got me is that there has been no owning of those mistakes, and no attempt to learn from those experiences that I can see. That's quite worrying. It doesn't appear to be an organisation that is growing, learning and improving.

Longer term changes that are needed come down to things like the training facilities, upgrading and improving the ground, community involvement and pursuing revenue streams. Some of these may be ongoing, no idea.

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

The big problem is harris and his ego followed by the other incompetent fools who surround him . Get rid of the liars and club killers fan ownership could work .

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=WrexhamO;2334398]A paid CEO too take real day to day charge and responsibility would be best imho.

Responsibility is spread 5 ways, with 5 different line managers. We need one person in charge.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree with you O. We need one person to take overall day to day running of the off field activities of the club who then answers into the board, I know this could eat into the playing budget but something has got to change.

On the football side is Dixie really a DoF or a figurehead / stooge for the current board. We should be asking

What are his roles and responsibilities?
What targets have been set?
Does he have any power to change things, whether it be from changing the colour of the bibs to changing personnel?
If the manager highlights a player we should be signing does Dixie have the final decision or the board?
Who does he answer to?

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=Phils-an-alki;2334342]It was probably sick of your constant clapping.[/QUOTE]

I also do slapping

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=WrexhamO;2334398]A paid CEO too take real day to day charge and responsibility would be best imho.

Responsibility is spread 5 ways, with 5 different line managers. We need one person in charge.[/QUOTE]

Been saying this for years , but only now did I realise why it won’t happen. The Elite couldn’t handle it.

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=Socrates;2334420]Totally agree with you O. We need one person to take overall day to day running of the off field activities of the club who then answers into the board, I know this could eat into the playing budget but something has got to change.

On the football side is Dixie really a DoF or a figurehead / stooge for the current board. We should be asking

What are his roles and responsibilities?
What targets have been set?
Does he have any power to change things, whether it be from changing the colour of the bibs to changing personnel?
If the manager highlights a player we should be signing does Dixie have the final decision or the board?
Who does he answer to?[/QUOTE]

The board totally dodged the question of Dixie's role in the recent Q&A, referring back instead to the last definition of board member roles that they could come up with.
If they could not define his role then they are basically saying that they appointed Dixie without identifying what his role and responsibilities are.

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=basdragon;2334291


So assuming that the aim would be to replace the current board and structure this summer, what ideas do people have to fill the void left if the board resign/get sacked or whatever ?


We know some are looking to the sugar daddy solution. Are there any realistic options for this in the pipeline ? What safeguards could we put in place to ensure we don't go back to the dark days of 10 years ago ?


There is a lot of flack for fan based ownership on here but there are places where it has worked, AFC Wimbledon and Wycombe Wanderers both in league one spring to mind, so when done properly it seems that fan owned clubs can work. Would we be able to shadow or study the structure of these well run clubs to find out what they are doing well that we aren't.

Just as importantly who would be willing to step in and replace the board if/when they went ?

I'll admit I have far more questions than answers, but what do we have collectively as alternatives ?[/QUOTE]

We have a very deep problem.

I can forgive most of errors the board have made but the crap about having all the skills etc make Nero look fantastic.

The position now is:

1. No resignations and carry on as is.

2. They belatedly recognize the mess they have created resign and leave others to sort out the mess if the can.

I suspect they will stick out. Not because it because it suits the club but their personal agenda's as, in their minds at least sticking gives leaves them in control and some sort of a chance of recovery.

The longer they stick the more difficult scenario 2 becomes for others to sort out. In fact it might be too late anyway for anyone to effectively influence the outcome of this season.

Can the be replaced with better? Certainly. It would be hard to do worse.

It seems there are still people thinking simply just changing the cast will do the trick.

In my view it is odds on they will be cast in the same mould.

The constitution and nature of the beast guarantee beuarocaracy and extreme risk aversion.

Better people but still the system will fail us.

I support changing the cast but as a first step to be lees risk averse and more welcoming of potential outside interests.

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

RACI is an acronym that stands for responsible, accountable, consulted and informed.

It’s been mentioned in the Q&A by the board, but unfortunately the board appears to be acting in the exact opposite way.

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=eosceiriog;2334435]We have a very deep problem.

I can forgive most of errors the board have made but the crap about having all the skills etc make Nero look fantastic.

The position now is:

1. No resignations and carry on as is.

2. They belatedly recognize the mess they have created resign and leave others to sort out the mess if the can.

I suspect they will stick out. Not because it because it suits the club but their personal agenda's as, in their minds at least sticking gives leaves them in control and some sort of a chance of recovery.

The longer they stick the more difficult scenario 2 becomes for others to sort out. In fact it might be too late anyway for anyone to effectively influence the outcome of this season.

Can the be replaced with better? Certainly. It would be hard to do worse.

It seems there are still people thinking simply just changing the cast will do the trick.

In my view it is odds on they will be cast in the same mould.

[B]The constitution and nature of the beast guarantee beuarocaracy and extreme risk aversion.

Better people but still the system will fail us.

I support changing the cast but as a first step to be lees risk averse and more welcoming of potential outside interests.[/QUOTE]
[/B]

Sadly, I agree with this. The structure and set up is wrong. It's a defensive territorial culture that exists amongst the two boards. It doesn't embrace outside interests or even encourage talent from within the wider fan base, it obstinates and it resists change.

You can not be 100% risk adverse when running a football club and still hope for success. Football is a risk as soon as the ref blows the whistle.

Supporters Direct (SD) have already merged with Football Supporters Federation (FSF) to become the Football Supporters Association (FSA) and it would be helpful if this strategy inspired the WST board and WAFC board to do similar, so between them they could figure out the priorities of ownership and responsibility to trust members and the priorities of running a successful football club as a core business activity and principal income generator.

We all know too many cooks spoil the broth. And our club broth is sadly hard to stomach at the moment.

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=WrexhamO;2334398]A paid CEO too take real day to day charge and responsibility would be best imho.

Responsibility is spread 5 ways, with 5 different line managers. We need one person in charge.[/QUOTE]

I think you are probably right, but I'm not sure I'd trust the current board to appoint the right person. You only have to look down the road to see what can happen if you appoint the wrong person into that position.

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=Wiltshire_Red;2334440]RACI is an acronym that stands for responsible, accountable, consulted and informed.

It’s been mentioned in the Q&A by the board, but unfortunately the board appears to be acting in the exact opposite way.[/QUOTE]

Does this need a 'Q' at the end. ? So I am told by a PH D assessor.
Oh am i out of my depth :)

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

Ffs when are they going to do the right thing and go? When will this nightmare end?

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=WrexhamO;2334428]The board totally dodged the question of Dixie's role in the recent Q&A, referring back instead to the last definition of board member roles that they could come up with.
If they could not define his role then they are basically saying that they appointed Dixie without identifying what his role and responsibilities are.[/QUOTE]

He’s been described by a board member as someone to take the flak off Spencer, so I’m guessing his role is Club Scapegoat.

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=Wiltshire_Red;2334440]RACI is an acronym that stands for responsible, accountable, consulted and informed.

It’s been mentioned in the Q&A by the board, but unfortunately the board appears to be acting in the exact opposite way.[/QUOTE]

It is also a symptom of how bad things are.

The club is a small business it needs much much less beuarocaracy, a lighter touch and to be fleeter of foot.

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=eosceiriog;2334474]It is also a symptom of how bad things are.

The club is a small business it needs much much less beuarocaracy, a lighter touch and to be fleeter of foot.[/QUOTE]

Agree again eosceiriog

More of a yacht and less of a naval ship with weapons approach.

RACI is a mind numbing corporate culture to impose on a football club whose number one activity is driven by results on the pitch.

ENDS would be more relevant at the moment.

Egotisic, Narrow minded, Defensive, Stubborn

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=eosceiriog;2334474]It is also a symptom of how bad things are.

The club is a small business it needs much much less beuarocaracy, a lighter touch and to be fleeter of foot.[/QUOTE]

The club is responsible for a fair number of employees - both full and part time as well as liaising with external agencies. There's also premises to manage and ensure they dont fall into further disrepair .

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

These are Spencer Harris' roles as outlined in the Q&A


[B]Spencer Harris HR, Governance & Line Management:[/B]


[I][B]Line Management [/B][/I]
•First Team / Youth Dept / Secretary

[I][B]Board Governance[/B][/I]
•Wrexham AFC business cycle
•Agendas
•Chair Board meetings
•Meeting management
•Board reports to WST
[I][B]
Human Resources[/B][/I]
•Org Design
•People Administration



[B]Only one simple change is needed. [/B] Transfer the [I]"Line Management"[/I] roles directly to Dixie McNeil with no interference and let him get on with it.

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=Inside Left;2334479]The club is responsible for a fair number of employees - both full and part time as well as liaising with external agencies. There's also premises to manage and ensure they dont fall into further disrepair .[/QUOTE]

None of which make any substantial difference to my view.

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

Oops! I missed a bunch of his Director duties. He's an incredibly busy man, I'm surprised the Corn Flake people ever see him!!!


[I][B]Human Resources (cont.)[/B][/I]



•Recruitment
•Issue resolution
•Policies
•Contracts /Job Offers
•Safeguarding

[I][B]Communications[/B][/I]

•Press & Media – bilingual (Welsh)

[I][B]Business Strategy[/B][/I]


•Government and funding
•Relationship owner with key stakeholders of WCBC, WAG, Glyndwr
•Link to FAW


[I][B]Training Ground[/B][/I]

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=draigwrecsam;2334487]Oops! I missed a bunch of his Director duties. He's an incredibly busy man, I'm surprised the Corn Flake people ever see him!!!


[I][B]Human Resources (cont.)[/B][/I]



•Recruitment
•Issue resolution
•Policies
•Contracts /Job Offers
•Safeguarding

[I][B]Communications[/B][/I]

•Press & Media – bilingual (Welsh)

[I][B]Business Strategy[/B][/I]


•Government and funding
•Relationship owner with key stakeholders of WCBC, WAG, Glyndwr
•Link to FAW


[I][B]Training Ground[/B][/I][/QUOTE]

You have missed club killing / lladd clwb off that list

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=Foxy;2334489]You have missed club killing / lladd clwb off that list[/QUOTE]

Lladd clwb / club killing you mean?!

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=draigwrecsam;2334487]Oops! I missed a bunch of his Director duties. He's an incredibly busy man, I'm surprised the Corn Flake people ever see him!!!


[I][B]Human Resources (cont.)[/B][/I]



•Recruitment
•Issue resolution
•Policies
•Contracts /Job Offers
•Safeguarding

[I][B]Communications[/B][/I]

•Press & Media – bilingual (Welsh)

[I][B]Business Strategy[/B][/I]


•Government and funding
•Relationship owner with key stakeholders of WCBC, WAG, Glyndwr
•Link to FAW


[I][B]Training Ground[/B][/I][/QUOTE]

How on earth can you devote serious time and energy to that list and do another full ? time job too ?

There must be a world wide shortage of breakfast cereal or perhaps responsibilities as outlined don't receive as much attention as they would otherwise by someone dedicated to the role - makes you think.
Are people taking on too much responsibility to give it the time it requires ?

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=Red Light;2334492]How on earth can you devote serious time and energy to that list and do another full ? time job too ?

There must be a world wide shortage of breakfast cereal or perhaps responsibilities as outlined don't receive as much attention as they would otherwise by someone dedicated to the role - makes you think.
Are people taking on too much responsibility to give it the time it requires ?[/QUOTE]

This was brought up at meet the manager night, the politician answer was it would cost about £80k for fulltime CEO and we are doing alright !! When questioned again about it & it's flaws , the answer was ...we are going around in circles here, let's move to next question !!!

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=Welsh Kiwi;2334478]Agree again eosceiriog

More of a yacht and less of a naval ship with weapons approach.

RACI is a mind numbing corporate culture to impose on a football club whose number one activity is driven by results on the pitch.

ENDS would be more relevant at the moment.

Egotisic, Narrow minded, Defensive, Stubborn[/QUOTE]

Got to say bit fed up of people misunderstanding what a RACI actually is. I totally understand why people dont get it. Its nothing to do woth corporate culture.

Its a tool predominantly used in project management where you have a matrix management approach to leading the activities of a number of people.

I could explain how they should work, but nobody cares. However the context of its use and its application at the football club is just totally wrong. It highlights a worrying point though.

Spencers job is in project management now I believe (seems like he is in a lesser role than his HR directors job now?). He seems to be employing tools and techniques he is familiar with despite them being out of context. Its a bit worrying that they are so devoid of ideas that they believe the principles of project management in a fmcg organisation are directly transferrable to running a football club.

[QUOTE=KingBuxton_Forever red;2334363]If we had brought in Keates and Davies, bombed off Darlington but brought in another coach that might have even helped.

Obviously you wont agree because Keates ran over your cat or something :jester:[/QUOTE]


Totally disagree non of them should of been brought back, why employ a manager who left you in the lurch 8 games to go? Why employ a failure who in a season destroyed his Hometown club and got them relegated? we were and still are in danger of relegation surely you get a manager with at least some relative successful experience? Or either way an old head like Brian Flynn for example.
[size=1][i]Posted via mobile theme[/i][/size]

Re: Realistic Changes to Our Club
 

[QUOTE=draigwrecsam;2334482]These are Spencer Harris' roles as outlined in the Q&A


[B]Spencer Harris HR, Governance & Line Management:[/B]


[I][B]Line Management [/B][/I]
•First Team / Youth Dept / Secretary

[I][B]Board Governance[/B][/I]
•Wrexham AFC business cycle
•Agendas
•Chair Board meetings
•Meeting management
•Board reports to WST
[I][B]
Human Resources[/B][/I]
•Org Design
•People Administration



[B]Only one simple change is needed. [/B] Transfer the [I]"Line Management"[/I] roles directly to Dixie McNeil with no interference and let him get on with it.[/QUOTE]

I work in a utility company so different - but tracking these across to our leadership team

Our Director of Operations does what WFC call Line Management.
Our CEO and two NEDs split what WFC called ‘board governance’
Our HR Director does what WFC call HR.
Our Head of Comms does the Communications bit.
Our Director of Regulation does Business Strategy.

6-8 people working full time to do the eqv of a job that Spencer Harris does part time. I report directly to one of those so have first hand experience. Doing two of those jobs at our place (1600 colleagues) would be utterly impossible.

Also, lots of conversation here on the use of RACI. The way SH has articulated it shows he doesn’t understand it. It’s a project management tool that sets out responsibilities, not a performance management tool.