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Old 21st November 2020, 14.42:23   #131-0 (permalink)
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There was 'The Roughest Pubs in UK 'programme on tv !
Old 21st November 2020, 17.07:54   #132-0 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leighton Red View Post
Absolutely love reading your posts on our heritage eastsussex - absolutely magnificent! Club historian role owner without a shadow!!
Thanks Leighton Red; much appreciated.
We are fortunate as a club that we have always had such passionate fans who have researched the history of the club to keep the heritage of the club alive- Gareth Davies and Peter Jones as well as WasanActonlad, Inside Left, Rhosymedre Red, Cymru Am Byth WXM and Rob from RP to name but a few. For me, it must be said that Pete Jones is Wrexham through and through and has dedicated most of his life to research the history of the club.
Nowadays, things are a lot easier and we can all search online, whereas those in the past, such as Pete and Gareth would have to physically research and locate the history in archives etc.
I am just happy to add a more anthropological viewpoint to the history of the club as well as the stadium and the land on which it was built.
For years I have believed that the history and heritage of the club and The Racecourse is the clubs main asset, which could bring us to the attention of a much wider audience. Hopefully, with R&R now at the helm, we will see that come to fruition.
Onwards and Upwards.

Last edited by eastsussex; 21st November 2020 at 17.09:49..
Old 21st November 2020, 17.26:34   #133-0 (permalink)
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And to add to that was there ever a tithe payable on the Turf to its gardens ? Smiles !
Old 21st November 2020, 19.55:10   #134-0 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inside Left View Post
And to add to that was there ever a tithe payable on the Turf to its gardens ? Smiles !
Not that I am aware of Inside Left.

The tithe register of the 1830’s shows that there was no tithe due (see attached).
At this time, The Racecourse was owned by the Wynn family, and The Racecourse as well as ‘a garden' (number 700 on the tithe map) and a number of fields were leased to the landlord of The Turf- John Tench.
But the situation is complex and the garden identified on the map is not what would come to be known as The Turf Tavern Garden. The Turf Garden, which is not identified on the map was a strip of land that occupied the current Turf Car Park, and this was the section of land on which the bowling green was later built. This was also the location where one of two timber grandstands were built at either side of the tavern and removed at the end of each meeting, prior to a stone stand being built in 1854
The garden (no 700 on the map) was a quarter- of- a- circle- shaped plot of land that bounded the original ditch of Wat’s Dyke. This ditch became known as Crispin Lane in the late 17th Century, although the garden itself was split in two when Crispin Lane was diverted closer to The Racecourse in the 1870's. That garden now sits under Crispin Lane and the footpath next to the railway.
The Racecourse had been built on the land of Plas Coch, which had been bought by Sir John Wynn at the end of the 17th Century and inherited by the wife of William Williams when Sir John Wynn died. The Williams family then also adopted the name of Wynn.
In 1795, the land where The Turf now stands was distinct from the rest of The Racecourse and was bounded in a rectangular shaped field, as shown on a previously posted map. At the same time, the House known as The Crispin, which was owned by The Ambrose Lewis family, had a lot of land, including where the railway station now stands and much of the land that makes up the very bottom end of The Racecourse.
The Crispin and its estate was bought by Thomas Durrack at the beginning of the 19th Century, and he then sold different plots of land at the bottom end of The Racecourse (the land behind the present kop) around 1810. A ships captain from Liverpool bought ‘at least’ a holding in The Crispin with a business partner at that time, but Durrack sold The Crispin and all of its estate in the 1820’s.
By the 1850’s The Crispin and Crispin Croft (a field at the side of The Racecourse- where the club shop car park is now located) was in the hands of Mary Hughes, and I believe that it may have been her son or a relative who lived at a house and owned the culdesac of houses known as Crispin Cottages- off Crispin Lane. He also built a couple of workshops on The Racecourse side of Crispin Lane- where The headquarters of the Fusiller Volunteers briefly stood, but he sold the workshops in the late 19th Century, and Benjamin Piercy- the railway engineer and industrialist bought some of this land, which now sits behind the kop and borders Mold Road. As far as I am aware, the quarter circular shaped plot of land identified as a garden (700 on the tithe map of the 1830’s) was originally owned by the Ambrose Lewis family throughout the 18th Century, but was possibly sold to the Wynn family around 1810, or possibly at the later sale around 1820.
Most of the old Stansty tithe rights were bought by the Foulkes family in the 19th Century.
If you can find earlier tithe records for The Turf, it could be a great help in determining the precise date of its construction

Last edited by eastsussex; 21st November 2020 at 20.06:42..
Old 21st November 2020, 21.19:37   #135-0 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastsussex View Post
Thanks Leighton Red; much appreciated.
We are fortunate as a club that we have always had such passionate fans who have researched the history of the club to keep the heritage of the club alive- Gareth Davies and Peter Jones as well as WasanActonlad, Inside Left, Rhosymedre Red, Cymru Am Byth WXM and Rob from RP to name but a few. For me, it must be said that Pete Jones is Wrexham through and through and has dedicated most of his life to research the history of the club.
Nowadays, things are a lot easier and we can all search online, whereas those in the past, such as Pete and Gareth would have to physically research and locate the history in archives etc.
I am just happy to add a more anthropological viewpoint to the history of the club as well as the stadium and the land on which it was built.
For years I have believed that the history and heritage of the club and The Racecourse is the clubs main asset, which could bring us to the attention of a much wider audience. Hopefully, with R&R now at the helm, we will see that come to fruition.
Onwards and Upwards.
I think you are far too modest ES. The work you have done is top drawer.
Well done and I have no doubt some well known people have read your history thread.
Old 21st November 2020, 21.47:08   #136-0 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel D View Post
Interesting as could pre date both USA and Canada.
Now wouldn't that be a headline grabber for our new owners to spread the word across the pond.
Old 21st November 2020, 22.29:47   #137-0 (permalink)
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I see you have undertaken a really good study of the maps and fees. I mentioned it as today i was looking up the Gwersyllt area for tithes. I then drifted towards town and onto the Racecourse, Turf, then parts of the town centre. The social history of our town is really interesting.
Its amazing how in living memory the church demanded tithes from people. Many refused, including an uncle of mine who, as a chapel man, took on church - and won.
Old 22nd November 2020, 00.59:44   #138-0 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inside Left View Post
I see you have undertaken a really good study of the maps and fees. I mentioned it as today i was looking up the Gwersyllt area for tithes. I then drifted towards town and onto the Racecourse, Turf, then parts of the town centre. The social history of our town is really interesting.
Its amazing how in living memory the church demanded tithes from people. Many refused, including an uncle of mine who, as a chapel man, took on church - and won.
Good for him Inside Left.

In the 1830’s register, John Tench was not paying tithe fees for The Turf Tavern/Grandstand or the garden in question, although he was still paying a tithe fee of £2-1shilling and 5d to Sir W.W. Wynn for a field on the opposite side of Mold Road from Glyndwr University, and he was also paying a tithe fee of £4- 2shillings to W.W. for the rest of The Racecourse.
As you know, these fees were traditionally paid to the vicar of Wrexham, but landowners frequently bought the tithe rights from the church.
Some tenants in Stansty were still paying tithes to both the landowners and the church in that register from the 1830’s.

The actual Turf Tavern Garden on The Racecourse side of Crispin Lane (not the quadrant shaped field 700 on the map) was bought for 3s 7d a yard by a Mr Little from Liverpool after Benjamin Piercy died in 1892. This was the piece of land where the bowling green was later built. He also bought the plot of land where the charity shop is located for 1s 10d a yard.
Attachment one shows the sale of Benjamin Piercy’s estate and the second attachment shows The Turf Tavern garden and gives a better understanding of how the junction at Crispin Lane was formed in 1878. It also gives details of how The Turf Hotel was formed from two distinct public houses.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1892 estate of Benjamin Piercy sold Turf Tavern Garden.jpg (91.4 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg 1874 Turf Hotel..jpg (180.9 KB, 14 views)
Old 22nd November 2020, 02.44:54   #139-0 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRealWelshWayne View Post
After reading the Wrexham.com article about LDP2 and its lack of support from councillors and the establishing inspectorate, is it a good idea to lobby about getting the racecourse included again?

I don't think it was included in ldp2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quay Red View Post
Good idea.
The original petition did make some headway but the council still didn't designate the course as a protected site as far as I'm aware.
Have always believed the Racecourse holds so much heritage and is a huge asset to the football club as its spiritual home. Of course it needs a lot of work doing to it, to get it fit for purpose by todays standards of modern stadia, but with solid investment, the character and history it will retain, as well keeping the memories of some incredible games on that turf intact, would in my view far outway any other thoughts to build a new stadium.

That was the reason I put in so much time and energy a decade ago, to help push the Red Passion petition that seeked to get the Racecourse ground notated into the Local Development Plan as a recreational area solely for sport. It was also to remove any risk of Mr Moss or Mr Roberts doing anything untoward with the ground after our experience with H&G.

Quay Red, Wrexham Councils Executive board did designate the Racecourse as a protected site for sports and recreation in the LDP 1 (March 2012) along with three other sites, as part of the LDP1 they submitted to WAG. But it was subsequently withdrawn because of the wider concerns by the Welsh Assembly's Planning inspector. So the protection didn't become effective.

Am now too far away to be involved in any more lobbying for LDP 2 (2013-28). I have also not read LDP 2 to check relevant clauses, but would have thought that protection would have been logically carried forward by Wrexham Council as part of LDP 2.

If it hasn't been and it needs a new round of local lobbying then am sure Welsh Wayne is more than capable of getting it going.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 05.30:12   #140-0 (permalink)
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Very interesting. Any idea what are the oldest surviving pictures of the turf whilst being patronised, preferably inside. When did it cease to actuallly be an active tafvern or hotel.
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