Wrecsam AFC

[welshian]

Originally Posted by Foxy

Hmm…considering I’m a person who feels that I do not have a nation, and also someone who is an ardent Remainer, I think you may be a tad wide of the mark.

You present yourself as an open minded europhile but your posts reveal you as clearly the opposite, at least where Wales is concerned. Nothing more than a small minded bigot.

[eastsussex]

Originally Posted by Sir Crispin Lane

Hello ES
Would Watts Dyke that runs along more or less the railway line by crispin lane have meant that the land the racecourse now sits on would have sat in ‘British’ hands , and the town of wrexham under the Mercians?

Hi Sir Crispin. I am glad that you asked.
I wrote a number of posts about this subject on the history thread a few years ago, as I feel that the location of Wat’s Dyke adds even more kudos to the iconic Racecourse, which was built on land adjoining the dyke that was reclaimed by the Britons from the Anglo Saxons; although the precise date when this happened has never been ascertained.

The simple answer to your question would be yes; briefly; although, the political situation around the Anglo Saxon settlement of Wristlesham/Wrightelsham/Wrexham (in particular) was so complex that it might be better to say that Wat’s Dyke served as a delineation between two different cultures, with proto-Welsh culture persisting to the west (Racecourse side) of the dyke and Anglo Saxon (Mercian) culture and law governing the eastern (town side) of the dyke; at least for a while, until the area where the town now stands was either lain waste, due to a push back from Powys or Gwynedd; or that specific area was briefly taken back by the Welsh, but only as far to the east as the settlements at Gresford, Hoseley, Marford, Sutton and Eyton etc, which remained in Mercian hands.


The etymology of place names as far as Offa’s Dyke confirms the extent of Anglo Saxon (Mercian) expansion in the 8th Century, while the Domesday Book identifies the areas that remained under Anglo Saxon control until the Norman Conquest of 1066 and King William’s survey of 1086.
The settlement of Wristlesham/Wrightelsham/Wrexham was not listed in the survey, which indicates that the settlement had been regained by the Briton’s at that time ‘if it still existed’ as there is a good chance that the original settlement had been wiped out, due to the numerous skirmishes between the proto-Welsh and the Mercians.
Many areas were destroyed as the Welsh pushed the Mercians back.

The nearby settlement of Hope was described as waste in 1066 when it was owned by a Saxon called ‘Edwin of Poulton’, although he forfeited the village after the Norman Conquest to a Norman by the name of Gilbert the Hunter. Gresford was also described as waste in 1066, when it was owned by a Saxon, named Thorth of Wroxeter. He forfeited the settlement to a Norman by the name of Reginald the Sherriff.
Hoseley was described as ‘possibly’ waste in 1066 when it was owned by the Canons of St Werburgh in Chester, which was an ecclesiastical order that was dedicated to the sainthood of the daughter of the 7th Century Anglo Saxon king- Wulfhere of Mercia. The order was allowed to retain a Lordship over the settlement after the conquest, whereas, Sutton and Eyton were each owned by the Bishopry of Lichfield in 1066, an order that was dedicated to a 7th Century Anglo Saxon saint (St Chad).
Both settlements were described as ‘waste’ in 1066, and Sutton was given to the Norman ‘Hugh, son of Osbern’ after the conquest, while the Lordship of Eyton was transferred to the Bishop of St John in Chester.
All of the surrounding settlements recorded in the Domesday Book told a similar story i.e. controlled by Mercia until the Norman Conquest, when the ownership of all of the conquered land and settlements was transferred to William the Conqueror, who then gifted the spoils to his fellow Normans, for their service to the crown.
(As a side note, William signed all of his legal documents ‘W REX’) .

All of the land and property was owned by the crown after the Norman Conquest, and the survey of 1086 ensured that taxes were paid to the king.
Most of the settlements in the area were described as ‘waste’ in the 1068 survey, due to The Harrying of The North, which was a Norman terror campaign that wiped out much of northern England, as well as Cheshire and parts of Shropshire, and the border lands that would come to be known as the Welsh Marches, although much of the borderlands may have already been devastated, due to centuries of conflict between the Welsh and the Mercians.


The construction date for Wat’s Dyke remains open to interpretation, although excavations at Gobowen in 2006 have indicated that the dyke was built by the Mercians between 792 and 852, with a likely context for construction being suggested as the early 820’s, when Coenwulf was fighting against the resurgent forces of Gwynedd. He died at Basingwerk (where Wat’s Dyke ends) near to the mouth of the River Dee in 821, and where he was deemed to have been making preparations for a campaign against Gwynedd. That campaign eventually took place under the leadership of his brother and successor, Coelwulf, the following year.

It is not known if Wat’s Dyke was intended to be used as a defensive barrier, in conjunction with Offa’s Dyke, which was situated up to two miles away to the west, or if Offa’s Dyke had already been claimed by Gwynedd at that time. But it would seem that the extent of Mercian hegemony had retreated back to the defensive line of Wat’s Dyke at this time, with the settlement of Wrightelsham/Wrexham still under Mercian control to the east.

Coelwulf destroyed the Welsh fortress at Degannwy in Gwynedd in his campaign of 822, but this success was short lived, as Coelwulf’s successor, Aethelred (Edryd-Long-Hair) Lord of the Mercians, was defeated by Anarawd ap Rhodri of Gwynedd at the Battle of Conwy in 881. This defeat finally ended Mercian hegmony in North Wales, and with Mercian power now fading, Aethelred was forced to submit to the overlordship of King Alfred the Great of Wessex, while Anarawd formed an alliance with the Vikings of York. This alliance was soon broken as the Vikings continued to raid Gwynedd, and so in 893 Anarawd and his brothers also swore fealty to King Alfred and became subject kings under his rule, but also gained the protection of Alfred’s forces from external threats.


So back to your original question Sir Crispin. Yes, there does appear to have been a time when the town of Wrexham was under the control of Mercia, while the land beyond Wat’s Dyke, where The Racecourse now stands, was not. Although, the situation was enormously complex and constantly changing in the borders that separated the Mercians and the proto kingdoms of Powys and Gwynedd.

[eastsussex]

I should have added that I don’t think that either of the dykes were structures that were intended to be manned by soldiers- like Hadrians Wall, for example; but instead, I believe that they were constructed to provide a physical obstruction that defended against bands of cattle raiders who waged a guerrilla war against the Mercian settlers on the other side of the dyke.
They were physical boundaries that provide us with a snapshot of the extent of Mercian hegemony at the time when each of the dykes were built.

[dragon48]

Fascinating stuff eastsussex. I really enjoyed reading that.

[Dougie Davies]

Originally Posted by welshian

You present yourself as an open minded europhile but your posts reveal you as clearly the opposite, at least where Wales is concerned. Nothing more than a small minded bigot.

It's mad how many Wrexham fans in this thread alone seem to hate Wales, anything Welsh and the Welsh language.
Looking at some usernames Kiddy, London similar theme there.
Foxy just despises anything Welsh. Just a Brit Nat in denial

[Dougie Davies]

Originally Posted by eastsussex

I should have added that I don’t think that either of the dykes were structures that were intended to be manned by soldiers- like Hadrians Wall, for example; but instead, I believe that they were constructed to provide a physical obstruction that defended against bands of cattle raiders who waged a guerrilla war against the Mercian settlers on the other side of the dyke.
They were physical boundaries that provide us with a snapshot of the extent of Mercian hegemony at the time when each of the dykes were built.

Love reading your history posts. I've walked the Offa's Dyke from south to north and read as much on the subject as I could. Fascinating stuff.

[eastsussex]

Originally Posted by Prodigal Dragon

I find all this quite fascinating.

How does the pre-fix ‘Gwer’ relate to Wrexham and Gwersyllt?

Please advise when next up. We still owe you a tour of the MRS.

Evening PD. Sorry I didn’t respond straight away.

I’m still looking forward to visiting the Rescue Centre and I will message you.

I am not sure how the prefix relates to Wrexham PD, although the prefix ‘gwer’ only appears once in 1366 in relation to Wrexham, and so it was probably one of the many misspellings that were interpreted from a name that was passed by word of mouth; although, as you will know, it was common in early Welsh to add the letter g before w and there are a number of examples of this in the list above.
Likewise, I’m not sure how it relates to Gwersyllt. From what I can gather, the name is often said to be derived from the Welsh word ‘gwersyll’ meaning ‘encampment’ although the settlement was first known as Wershull in 1315, which was also spelled Wersuld and Wersult in other references from 1315. The prefix ‘G’ was added to form Gwersild in 1393, 1442 and 1561.
The current form ‘Gwersyllt’ first appeared in 1402; Wersyllt 1461; Gwershull 1561 and Wershult 1564, but there were also a number of references to people from ‘Wershull’ in the court rolls of Castle Leon (Holt Castle) from the 14th and 15th Centuries,
Therefore, the original name of the settlement ‘appears’ to have been ‘Wershull’ and may have been derived from the Anglo Saxon ‘Wearg/Weargh’ meaning ‘felon/criminal’ and Anglo Saxon ‘hull’ meaning ‘hill’ as criminals were often hanged on the top of a hill (Gwersyllt Hill) like the nearby Acton Hill, which was still remembered as having formerly been a place of execution in the 17th Century.
I think that a good case could be made for the place name of Gwersyllt being of either Welsh or of Old English origin.

[Prodigal Dragon]

Originally Posted by eastsussex

Evening PD. Sorry I didn’t respond straight away.

I’m still looking forward to visiting the Rescue Centre and I will message you.

I am not sure how the prefix relates to Wrexham PD, although the prefix ‘gwer’ only appears once in 1366 in relation to Wrexham, and so it was probably one of the many misspellings that were interpreted from a name that was passed by word of mouth; although, as you will know, it was common in early Welsh to add the letter g before w and there are a number of examples of this in the list above.
Likewise, I’m not sure how it relates to Gwersyllt. From what I can gather, the name is often said to be derived from the Welsh word ‘gwersyll’ meaning ‘encampment’ although the settlement was first known as Wershull in 1315, which was also spelled Wersuld and Wersult in other references from 1315. The prefix ‘G’ was added to form Gwersild in 1393, 1442 and 1561.
The current form ‘Gwersyllt’ first appeared in 1402; Wersyllt 1461; Gwershull 1561 and Wershult 1564, but there were also a number of references to people from ‘Wershull’ in the court rolls of Castle Leon (Holt Castle) from the 14th and 15th Centuries,
Therefore, the original name of the settlement ‘appears’ to have been ‘Wershull’ and may have been derived from the Anglo Saxon ‘Wearg/Weargh’ meaning ‘felon/criminal’ and Anglo Saxon ‘hull’ meaning ‘hill’ as criminals were often hanged on the top of a hill (Gwersyllt Hill) like the nearby Acton Hill, which was still remembered as having formerly been a place of execution in the 17th Century.
I think that a good case could be made for the place name of Gwersyllt being of either Welsh or of Old English origin.

Great updates. All very thought provoking, depending on which side of the Dykes you abide.

Like you, I think Offa and Wat’s Dykes were ‘lines in the sand’ rather than fortifications.

The MRS is coming along. The grant applications are a minefield, but we’ll get there. Probably being a bit optimistic, but aiming to have it fully restored by end of 2025.

[Lord Derfyl Cadarn]

Just don't vote for Welsh Labour or we will continue to go backwards as a nation!