The massive Wrexham AFC history thread (The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham...)

[Inside Left]

I have seen a similar map to this one. But the one you have discovered here seems more detailed. By that I mean - Looking at the Infirmary, Barracks and Workhouse you can see internal arrangements of the buildings. Also of interest is the layout of the Wrexham Exchange rail live where it leads to the Central or 'Jubilee' station. This plan indicated that the radius of the line is one furlong !

I have read a few books on mapping and from what I can glean early maps and plans were undertaken by men of the Royal Engineers. Note that this map is also a result of work undertaken by two RE men. Initial mapping was carried out by forces men because of a need to record areas for defence purposes.

I would love to see the blocks map for the town centre such as High Street and the line of The Gwenfro. If they are available.

I also noted in 'your' map where the Toll Gates were positioned. One is on Mold Rd opposite where the Lager club is. When were Toll gates discontinued ? Surely they didn't charge carriages a toll to go to the races ! No doubt my dates are all out of sync.

On the last block plan (Kings Mill Road) there is an earth work from a position opposite Whitegate Road towards Brynycabanau Rd (Binnici). That earth work was the first part of excavation which would have linked a rail line between the Ellesmere line in Hightown around the south of the town to align with the GWR near Bersham Rd. For some reason the work was never proceeded with.

Thanks yet again for more information about the grand old town.

[NewportRoadEnd]

Originally Posted by Bobo99

Detailed Ordnance survey maps of Gwrecsam 1872-1881. Map XXV111 shows the Turf Hotel and Racecourse.

https://viewer.library.wales/4761895...%2C2151%2C1749

Wonderful. Didn't realise Wrexham General had two(!) turntables in that position. Guess their pits may still be there just like Birmingham although they do look substantially smaller - and maybe wagon traversers considering there was a big Roundhouse at Croesnewydd Shed.

[Bobo99]

Inside Left. From the same collection at National Library of Wales. The first map link below shows High Street, don't know if you have seen this one or if it has the detail you are after. The second map link is my favourite, it clearly shows the no mans land between the adjacent length of Watts Dyke and Offa's Dyke.

https://viewer.library.wales/4643138...%2C1583%2C1105




https://viewer.library.wales/1445618...%2C1664%2C1025

[Rob]

Originally Posted by Bobo99

Inside Left. From the same collection at National Library of Wales. The first map link below shows High Street, don't know if you have seen this one or if it has the detail you are after. The second map link is my favourite, it clearly shows the no mans land between the adjacent length of Watts Dyke and Offa's Dyke.

https://viewer.library.wales/4643138...%2C1583%2C1105




https://viewer.library.wales/1445618...%2C1664%2C1025

These are great - do you know if there is there any easy way to download as a PDF / image? Can't see an obvious way.

[Bobo99]

Originally Posted by Rob

These are great - do you know if there is there any easy way to download as a PDF / image? Can't see an obvious way.

I've not tried to download and save any, it looks like if you sign up to the national library of Wales you can order them, don't know what costs are involved.

[Inside Left]

Originally Posted by Bobo99

Inside Left. From the same collection at National Library of Wales. The first map link below shows High Street, don't know if you have seen this one or if it has the detail you are after. The second map link is my favourite, it clearly shows the no mans land between the adjacent length of Watts Dyke and Offa's Dyke.

https://viewer.library.wales/4643138...%2C1583%2C1105




https://viewer.library.wales/1445618...%2C1664%2C1025

A big thank you for these plans. Spending hours reading and visualising the grand old town back in the day.

[eastsussex]

Originally Posted by eastsussex

Yes, I remember your post about Francis Pryor (Britain A.D.), DP, and I have watched the programme a number of times, but I’m afraid that I do not agree with his core findings.
There is a fashion amongst academics nowadays to promote the idea of the cultural assimilation of the indigenous Britons by the collective group, known as the Anglo Saxons and this is evidently true, as we now all speak English. But I consider it naïve, or at least, partially driven by ideological factors, for academics to suggest that Anglo Saxon culture pervaded by means of mutual social cohesion, rather than as the consequence of a gradual military conquest. Although, no doubt, there were alliances at first and periodic mutually beneficial unions were formed, such as Powys and Gwynedd with Mercia against the old enemy- the angles of Northumbria, or even occasionally against the Vikings, but the political situation was always changing. These were dangerous times for the Britons, and even more so for those at the bottom of society (as always) whereas those higher in the social hierarchy most likely found it beneficial or safer to collude.

Unless there is a massive show of force at a particular point in time, such as The Nazi Blitzkrieg’s from the late 1930’s, then this is the way that most gradual take-overs occur and always have done. Take for example, India, where Britain had been trading for 157 years but did not begin to seize land until 1757; and like the Britons, who had been subjugated under Roman jurisdiction and customs for centuries, the Indians were also recovering from the effects of 800 years of Muslim rule when the British first started to acquire trading posts. And like in India, the Anglo Saxons eventually took over all positions of high office, while the Britons were frozen out, except in areas where they fought back and retained control of their own land. If this wasn’t the case, then we would not have a Wales or Scotland today as they would have all been assimilated in a single culture of a one nation AEngla land. There would also never have been a ‘Brittany’ in France if it were not for the large numbers of Britons who sought refuge from the Anglo Saxons from the late 4th to the 6th Century, in particular. It could also be asked- did the Romans build the Antonine wall and Hadrians wall to spare the Scots from multi culturalism? It might seem a ridiculous question to ask, but this is the conclusion that would have to be drawn from the existence of Wat’s Dyke and Offa’s Dyke in Wales if the Anglo Saxon take-over was just cultural assimilation. But of course it wasn’t just cultural assimilation; it was a gradual military takeover. As you say, the process occurred at different rates in different regions over a number of centuries; in fact, the effects of that process are still in play with Plaid Cymru and the SNP, whereas the location of England and its proximity to mainland Europe probably aided the Anglo Saxons.
This was the dark ages though, and there are very few contemporary sources for information, particularly from the 4th to 6th Centuries and so most of the information comes from medieval chroniclers who derived their information from Bede.
The following wiki link uses just 4 sources to provide a timeline of Anglo Saxon battles, although does not include the works, for example, of Gildas or Nennius etc.. Even so, many of these battles are also confirmed in other areas, such as the Irish and Scottish annals, and even though all of these records would be, at the very least, tinged with bias and the royal genealogies may have been manipulated to direct a particular narrative, but the sheer number of battles indicates, rather dramatically, that the entire nation was a war zone for 700 years. Again, I have used wiki just to provide a general overview, although there were more battles recorded in different archives.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeli...-Saxon_Britain

I don’t doubt that there may have been pockets of communities living side by side in different periods, in different places, including, perhaps, around Wrexham, and there was also no doubt traders and settlers from different regions in different parts of the country at different times, although I doubt if those communities shared much cohesion during the numerous turf wars that frequently arose between Powys, Gwynedd and Mercia, for example.
The eastern side of Wat’s Dyke appears to have been in Anglo Saxon hands prior to the Norman invasion.
There really is so much evidence that this was primarily a military invasion that happened over hundreds of years and that the cultural assimilation was a secondary consequence of a gradual onslaught.
Genetically, you will not find enormous amounts of Anglo Saxon DNA in modern day British people, although you will find more in England than in Wales and Scotland, for obvious reasons, but you will also find very little Roman or Viking DNA, because the relatively small groups of invaders (in comparison to the overall population) had a much larger historical impact than their impact on the gene pool.

I think that the history is far more complex than often portrayed DP, but to simply ignore the history as recorded by the later Welsh, Scottish, Irish and Anglo Saxon writers as well as a number of contemporary Roman writers makes no sense whatsoever to me.
There was no ethnic cleansing, as such; instead, the incomers took over and dominated the people who lived here and prescribed their customs and laws- same as the Romans had done previously, and the Vikings and Normans would do later. This was a conquest that occured over a number of centuries (imho).

Rather than ‘Britain A.D.’ by Francis Pryor, DP, I believe that a more comprehensive understanding of the situation can be found in the documentary ‘After Rome- The War for Britain’ which is a new documentary that can be found on YouTube, although the programme is 3.5 hours long and is best watched on tv rather than from a laptop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXBgNNtEJ6M


The documentary tells the story of the Britons from the area that would later become the Anglo Saxon Kingdom of Northumbria, although there is also plenty of information about the area that would later become Wales. But the documentary also tells of the climate disaster, plagues and mass migrations, which created chaos and contributed to the collapse of the Roman Empire before the later invasions of Britannia from Europe, as well as showing how conquest gave the victors a booty of slaves.

Its worth watching (imo) if you have the time.

[jonesfach]

Very interesting. Euros next rest day viewing

[Dafgog]

Originally Posted by eastsussex

Rather than ‘Britain A.D.’ by Francis Pryor, DP, I believe that a more comprehensive understanding of the situation can be found in the documentary ‘After Rome- The War for Britain’ which is a new documentary that can be found on YouTube, although the programme is 3.5 hours long and is best watched on tv rather than from a laptop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXBgNNtEJ6M


The documentary tells the story of the Britons from the area that would later become the Anglo Saxon Kingdom of Northumbria, although there is also plenty of information about the area that would later become Wales. But the documentary also tells of the climate disaster, plagues and mass migrations, which created chaos and contributed to the collapse of the Roman Empire before the later invasions of Britannia from Europe, as well as showing how conquest gave the victors a booty of slaves.

Its worth watching (imo) if you have the time.

Yes well worth a long look. Some aspects rather controversial but largely a huge watch worth staying with. Pity the pronunciation of so many is so poor - Llywarch Hen, Cadwallon, Urien Rheged, Catraeth, Taliesin and many others. Nevertheless, many thanks for the gem.