The massive Wrexham AFC history thread (The sad case of a founding members and player of Wrexham...)

[eastsussexred]

Originally Posted by BillEBadass

This has been my favourite thread for ages, I'm amazed at posters knowledge, their ability to research and have personally learnt a great deal - am really grateful, thank you.

I have long been interested in Offa's Dyke and Wat's Dyke and the relationship between them. It's so very strange that so little is known about something so big. I was recently asked to explain why, when Richard 1st of England granted a charter to Hereford in 1189, which is 16 miles east of the Dyke, he referred to it as 'Hereford in Wales.'
I couldn't.

We may never know BillE, but just a suggestion-

Richard I had been at war with his father- Henry II, and after Henry died, Richard the Lionheart succeeded him as King of England, Duke of Normandy and Count of Anjou, being crowned at Westminster Abbey on 3rd September 1189, although Richard had spent much of his life in France and had formed an alliance with Philip II of France against Henry.
Philip and Henry II had ended their own hostilities when they took up the cross (agreed to go on Holy Crusade together) in January 1188, and both imposed a ‘Saladin tithe’ on their subjects to fund the venture. At the same time, Baldwin of Exeter- The Archbishop of Canterbury toured Wales where he convinced 3,000 men at arms to join the venture. But the following year, Philip re-commenced hostilities against Henry and the forces of both Philip and Richard defeated Henry II at Ballans in France on 4th July 1189. Henry died two days later and Richard I took the crown

As soon as Richard was crowned, he immediately started to raise funds for the Third Crusade with Philip, as each king feared that during his absence, the other would usurp his territories.
The need for funds was paramount and Richard even forced his own nobles to bid huge sums of money for their own land, titles and positions.
A month after Richard was crowned at Westminster, Hereford was granted a Charter (9th October 1189) for a fee of £40 per year

Meanwhile, between 1184 and 1186 Hereford had been under attack from the Welsh and a truce had been appeased by Henry II’s chief justice minister- Ranulf De Glanville, in 1186. Glanville himself was removed from office by Richard and imprisoned on 17th September 1189 until he paid a ransom, which was reported by one source at £15,000.


After the death of Owain Gwynnedd in 1170, Rhys ap Gruffydd (the ruler of The Kingdom of Deheubarth in South Wales) became the most dominant power in Wales, and he had maintained good relations with Henry II, but soon after the death of Henry, Rhys and his family, as well as many of their Welsh allies revolted against Richard and started attacking the Norman lordships surrounding their territory.
Aware of this potential, Richard may have been appeasing the Welsh by naming Hereford as Welsh in the Charter that he granted to Hereford just weeks after he was crowned; not least because he did not want another war on the borders of his realm while he was away on Crusade, although the fee would also have helped his war chest - when Richard was raising funds for his crusade, he was said to have declared, "I would have sold London if I could find a buyer". He may have also been thinking about the 3,000 Welshmen at arms who had been recruited for the next crusade by The Archbishop of Canterbury, some months earlier, including Rhys ap Gruffydd’s son- Maelgwyn, although there is no evidence to show that Maelgwyn actually went on Crusade when Richard set out on his Crusade to the holy land in the summer of 1190.

[eastsussexred]

Originally Posted by eastsussexred

We may never know BillE, but just a suggestion-

Richard I had been at war with his father- Henry II, and after Henry died, Richard the Lionheart succeeded him as King of England, Duke of Normandy and Count of Anjou, being crowned at Westminster Abbey on 3rd September 1189, although Richard had spent much of his life in France and had formed an alliance with Philip II of France against Henry.
Philip and Henry II had ended their own hostilities when they took up the cross (agreed to go on Holy Crusade together) in January 1188, and both imposed a ‘Saladin tithe’ on their subjects to fund the venture. At the same time, Baldwin of Exeter- The Archbishop of Canterbury toured Wales where he convinced 3,000 men at arms to join the venture. But the following year, Philip re-commenced hostilities against Henry and the forces of both Philip and Richard defeated Henry II at Ballans in France on 4th July 1189. Henry died two days later and Richard I took the crown

As soon as Richard was crowned, he immediately started to raise funds for the Third Crusade with Philip, as each king feared that during his absence, the other would usurp his territories.
The need for funds was paramount and Richard even forced his own nobles to bid huge sums of money for their own land, titles and positions.
A month after Richard was crowned at Westminster, Hereford was granted a Charter (9th October 1189) for a fee of £40 per year

Meanwhile, between 1184 and 1186 Hereford had been under attack from the Welsh and a truce had been appeased by Henry II’s chief justice minister- Ranulf De Glanville, in 1186. Glanville himself was removed from office by Richard and imprisoned on 17th September 1189 until he paid a ransom, which was reported by one source at £15,000.


After the death of Owain Gwynnedd in 1170, Rhys ap Gruffydd (the ruler of The Kingdom of Deheubarth in South Wales) became the most dominant power in Wales, and he had maintained good relations with Henry II, but soon after the death of Henry, Rhys and his family, as well as many of their Welsh allies revolted against Richard and started attacking the Norman lordships surrounding their territory.
Aware of this potential, Richard may have been appeasing the Welsh by naming Hereford as Welsh in the Charter that he granted to Hereford just weeks after he was crowned; not least because he did not want another war on the borders of his realm while he was away on Crusade, although the fee would also have helped his war chest - when Richard was raising funds for his crusade, he was said to have declared, "I would have sold London if I could find a buyer". He may have also been thinking about the 3,000 Welshmen at arms who had been recruited for the next crusade by The Archbishop of Canterbury, some months earlier, including Rhys ap Gruffydd’s son- Maelgwyn, although there is no evidence to show that Maelgwyn actually went on Crusade when Richard set out on his Crusade to the holy land in the summer of 1190.

Or alternatively, Richard was firing a warning shot over the heads of the powerful barons and Marcher Lords, in order to show the consequences of not submitting to his rule or contributing enough money to the Third Crusade.
As you will probably know BillE ,The Marcher Lords were exempt from many of the liabilities that were required from the rest of Norman England and the lords ruled by their own law; enjoying a special authority and autonomy, like mini kings. Their main insecurity (other than taking up arms against the king) was dying without an heir, whereby their title would return to the crown, but another issue evolved from the rise of The Plantagenets (a royal house which originated from the French province of Anjou). Henry II was the first Angevin king of England, from which the House of The Plantagenets were derived. The Plantagenets sought to centralise power and make the powerful barons and Marcher Lords more accountable to the king. Henry II was crowned King of England on December 19th 1154 and immediately set out to bring the barons back into line after a period of civil war in England (1135- 1153) had enabled them to largely ignore royal authority. The barons had been creating their own realms by building castles and Henry soon earned the nickname of ‘the castle-breaker’ as his forces swept through the country tearing down castles or confiscating them in the name of the crown. Hereford castle was originally given to Roger of Gloucester, but a rebellion followed and so Henry retook possession, and for the rest of its history it remained in royal hands. He also besieged the nearby Wigmore Castle in 1155 when Hugh de Mortimer refused to return Bridgenorth Castle to the crown.
The Marcher Lords were riled and there is documented evidence of protest, but Henry also sought to take control of the border wars with Wales and had fought two campaigns in North and South Wales in 1157/58 before Owain Gwynedd and Rhys ap Gruffydd submitted to his rule. However, Hereford had again been under attack from the Welsh from 1184 to 1186 and Richard knew that Welsh forces would seek to take advantage after Henry’s death. Henry’s Chief Justice Minister- Ranulf De Glanville had brokered a peace in 1186, but when Henry died and Richard took the crown, he immediately had Glanville thrown in prison and replaced by William de Longchamp who was forced to pay £3,000 to attain the title of Chancelor, while also becoming The Bishop of Ely. Longchamp became the most powerful man in England when Richard left for the Third Crusade, and it was William de Longchamp (as well as The Bishop of Durham) who signed the Charter of Hereford in October 1189. But Longchamp, more than anyone else, would have been fully aware of its significance as his family’s seat was Wilton Castle, nr Hereford, and his brother- Henry was also appointed High Sheriff of Herefordshire by Richard I in 1190.
Longchamp’s involvement (and his specific knowledge of the politics of the area) suggests to me that that the Welsh aspect of the Hereford Charter was a ploy by Richard to show the Marcher Lords, the influence that large contributions to the Royal treasury could buy (hence the rise of the Lonchamp’s) but also warning of the consequences of not submitting to the rule of the new king- a kind of veiled threat of the potential consequences of a new border war with the Welsh.
Unless the charter has been wrongly transcribed, then Longchamp’s signature on the charter seems to rule out any kind of bizarre administrative error ??

[eastsussexred]

Originally Posted by BillEBadass

This has been my favourite thread for ages, I'm amazed at posters knowledge, their ability to research and have personally learnt a great deal - am really grateful, thank you.

I have long been interested in Offa's Dyke and Wat's Dyke and the relationship between them. It's so very strange that so little is known about something so big. I was recently asked to explain why, when Richard 1st of England granted a charter to Hereford in 1189, which is 16 miles east of the Dyke, he referred to it as 'Hereford in Wales.'
I couldn't.

In addition to The Charter of Hereford (1189) from Richard I, I have found a document from 80 years earlier which also refers to ‘Hereford in Wales’.

On his coronation for the crown of England, William the Conqueror’s son- Henry I introduced a Charter of Liberties in 1100AD (a forerunner for the Magna Carta) , which resulted in a schedule of fees that were due to the king, based on the amount of land of his subjects. This was responded to by the Bishop of Hereford under the heading ‘Hereford in Wallia’ in 1109.

Carta de episcopi Hereford de militibus et feodis suis (The bishop of Hereford, concerning the charter of the soldiers and fees.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...0wales&f=false


There are also a lot of references to Hereford in Wallia in The Chancellors Roll for the Third Year of King John in 1202

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...wallia&f=false


and from Henry III- 1228

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...wallia&f=false

In 1422-71 Certain properties within the borders of Herefordshire were constantly described as lying in Wallia or NorthWallia in letters written by Henry VI.

In 1535, all of these estates were brought back into the County of Hereford

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...wallia&f=false

[dragonspark]

i am more than certain that eastsussex red is aware that the name Hereford is, i believe derived from Henfordd, old road, unless this is just conjecture on place names, before the Roman occupation every hill.mountain, river, settlement and area in England, Wales and Southern Scotland had old Welsh titles which were retained in some places in England even after anglo saxon dominance in certain areas but were changed to suit the speakers of old germanic languages and place names were either corrupted or changed completely,
this is true from the Dee estuary to the Avon estuary, and there is one name that is proof of this as in Afon- river

[eastsussexred]

Originally Posted by BillEBadass

This has been my favourite thread for ages, I'm amazed at posters knowledge, their ability to research and have personally learnt a great deal - am really grateful, thank you.

I have long been interested in Offa's Dyke and Wat's Dyke and the relationship between them. It's so very strange that so little is known about something so big. I was recently asked to explain why, when Richard 1st of England granted a charter to Hereford in 1189, which is 16 miles east of the Dyke, he referred to it as 'Hereford in Wales.'
I couldn't.

I have looked into this in a bit more detail BillE and read a bit of the academic stuff relating to the subject, although it appears to have been mostly disregarded as an anomaly and skipped over. One paper, which I think was from the university of Wales some years ago suggested that ‘Hereford in Wallia’ merely related to the different parts of Herefordshire that were occasionally re-taken by the Welsh. Although, this idea fails to explain why Richard I specifically gave a Charter to the town of ‘Hereford in Wallia’ when it was still under the control of The Marcher Lords and Barons. But I think that I have found an explanation that can resolve this issue and one which, appears to me, to make a lot more sense than anything I have read elsewhere.
William the Conqueror had originally left his trusted Barons to protect and control the borderlands with Wales (The Welsh Marches) and these Marcher Lords and Barons created their own realms, mostly without intrusion from the crown. But with the rise of The Plantagenets, their realms would be threatened as successive Kings sought to return control to the crown.
The Marcher Lords grew increasingly suspicious of the crown’s motives in the marches and many did not want the total subjugation of the Welsh, as the principality would have been annexed under the authority of the crown, which would then lead to the curtailment of their own authority (see attachment).
By specifying that Hereford was in Wales, even though it was under Norman control, Richard I was sending a message to The Marcher Lords that the town of Hereford was not subject to the control of the English crown, but remained under the authority of the Lords. It is difficult to envisage now as the borders between the two countries have long been established, but in the 12th Century, The Marches were still a frontier that was distinct from England, and which was still under the control of The Marcher Lords. Richard was acknowledging this fact in a charter, which was created just weeks after he came to power, and at a time when he needed allies. He needed to appease the barons in the marches, and especially after his father had annexed the castles of many of the barons in the area, just a few years earlier.
If Richard had specified that Hereford was in England at this time, then he would have been signalling to the barons that Hereford was subject to English rule and therefore under the control of the crown.
Alternatively, he could have just created a charter for ‘Hereford’ without reference to its nationality, but the fact that he chose to do so, and the fact that he would have been advised by his new Chancellor- William de Longchamp (who’s family’s seat was in Hereford) indicates that this was a diplomatic gesture to The Marcher Lords.
This gesture was carried forward by future kings, as per my previous post.

[eastsussexred]

Originally Posted by eastsussexred

Another fact that has been forgotten about The Racecourse, is that it also served as a stadium for international Hockey matches at the end of the 19th Century and into the 20th Century.
The Welsh Hockey Association was founded in 1896 with the Welsh Womens Hockey Association founded the following year. The Wrexham Hockey Club are believed to have had a pitch on other areas of The Racecourse from around 1919, but International Hockey was played on the football pitch (as attached)

For anyone interested in Hockey

Attached are the earliest photo’s (of which I am aware) of the Welsh Hockey team.
The photos were taken at the international match against Ireland at the Catholic University Ground, Sandymount, Dublin, on the 28th February 1897.
I am not sure if these photos have been recorded elsewhere, and so they may be of interest to sport historians as well as hockey enthusiasts.
The two previous games between the nations had resulted in wins for Ireland, and on this occasion- Wales, who played in white shirts and dark shorts were beaten by 5 goals to 0.
Ireland played in green shirts with white shorts.

The Welsh team consisted of

A. G. Edwards- Portmadoc (goal)
E.H. Perry- Prestatyn (full back)
E. C. Breese- Portmadoc (full back)
A. Smith- Wrexham (half back)
W. Gunner- Rhyl (half back)
Idris Jones- Setton? (half back)
J. Griffiths- Portmadoc and Cambridge University
E. W. Powel- Wrexham and Oxford University
Morris- Chester (capt)
J. Clarke- Dolgelly.

[BillEBadass]

All I can say is a very genuine thank you ESR - absolutely superb research and interpretation . Next time my grandson asks any difficult questions I'll refer him straight to you.
Thank you.

[Cymro]

Haven't really logged into this thread before. What a find. Best thread on the site and good to see the negative posters on the main thread generally staying away. My specialist area is Welsh medieval history so the thread has moved into a great area for me. Da iawn.

[eastsussexred]

Originally Posted by Cymro

Haven't really logged into this thread before. What a find. Best thread on the site and good to see the negative posters on the main thread generally staying away. My specialist area is Welsh medieval history so the thread has moved into a great area for me. Da iawn.

Evening Cymro, in addition to the history of Y Cae Ras and the football club, the thread has evolved as a kind of thought process, which attempts to discover the history of the area around Y Cae Ras and Wrexham, not least because, like others, I believe that the area between Offa’s Dyke and Wat’s Dyke is significant in terms of the birth of Wales as a nation.
Often, the thread goes down blind alleys and at other times, intuition proves to be incorrect, while at other times, the thread discovers previously unknown information, which hopefully adds provenance to the history of the area, the stadium and the club.